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  • A question on genocide . . .

    I was stuck in traffic and already irritated by something in the political news when this train of thought struck me.

    1 - Bill Clinton used the US Military in Kosovo to end genocide, aka "ethnic cleansing". [Note - This was a NATO operation not sanctioned by the UN until after the fact].

    2 - A significant number of Democrats feel we should use the military to end genocide in Darfur.

    3 - There is significant consensus that a precipitous withdrawal from Iraq will probably unlease a wave of 'ethnic cleansing'.

    So you see where I'm having a problem here?
    Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

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  • #2
    Genocides will never be deminished?
    I am a simple man. I am by no means smarter than the average man. I am average...yet genius.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by GCoyote View Post
      I was stuck in traffic and already irritated by something in the political news when this train of thought struck me.

      1 - Bill Clinton used the US Military in Kosovo to end genocide, aka "ethnic cleansing". [Note - This was a NATO operation not sanctioned by the UN until after the fact].

      2 - A significant number of Democrats feel we should use the military to end genocide in Darfur.

      3 - There is significant consensus that a precipitous withdrawal from Iraq will probably unlease a wave of 'ethnic cleansing'.

      So you see where I'm having a problem here?
      GC,Trying to figure out the thinking processes of the Democrat Party will only give you a headache.
      If you Ain't Cav,You Ain't S---

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      • #4
        is genocide a bad thing?

        I guess it depends who is on the receiving end of it?
        "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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        • #5
          Originally posted by GCoyote View Post
          I was stuck in traffic and already irritated by something in the political news when this train of thought struck me.

          1 - Bill Clinton used the US Military in Kosovo to end genocide, aka "ethnic cleansing". [Note - This was a NATO operation not sanctioned by the UN until after the fact].

          2 - A significant number of Democrats feel we should use the military to end genocide in Darfur.

          3 - There is significant consensus that a precipitous withdrawal from Iraq will probably unlease a wave of 'ethnic cleansing'.

          So you see where I'm having a problem here?
          In this book...



          Non sequitor is de rigueur...
          Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by GCoyote View Post
            I was stuck in traffic and already irritated by something in the political news when this train of thought struck me.

            1 - Bill Clinton used the US Military in Kosovo to end genocide, aka "ethnic cleansing". [Note - This was a NATO operation not sanctioned by the UN until after the fact].
            As I recall it, Republicans opposed Clinton's policy on Kosovo.

            Originally posted by GCoyote View Post
            2 - A significant number of Democrats feel we should use the military to end genocide in Darfur.
            "On the surface", it isn't a bad ideal considering the risks America and consequences America embraced by going into Iraq. We could probably help more and suffer less. "ON THE SURFACE!"

            Originally posted by GCoyote View Post
            3 - There is significant consensus that a precipitous withdrawal from Iraq will probably unlease a wave of 'ethnic cleansing'.
            I'm certain Democrats would argue we have a better chance at stopping the violence in Dafur than preventing civil war in Iraq.

            Originally posted by GCoyote View Post
            So you see where I'm having a problem here?
            Both sides flip flop on the same issue. Republicans criticized Clinton for entangling US forces in Kosovo, which was a complexed ethnic conflict with deep roots, and some unreliable peace developers, particularly Milosevic. However, they are now in an even worse fix in Iraq where things are more difficult and our local allies even less reliable. The stakes are also greater with an even lower probability for success IMHO.

            Democrats criticize Bush seeming to forget their own experience with these kinds of conflicts, which are increasingly unavoidable. We can blame Bush for his errors, but many of the problems he is coping with appear to be the rule rather than the exception with these kinds of wars.
            "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

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            • #7
              McCain wanted to send ground troops into Kosovo.

              Republicans wanted to lift the arms embargo against the Bosnian Muslims.

              That said...The "Wag the Dog" crap about Clinton was pretty close to treasonous behavior on the part of some Republicans.
              Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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              • #8
                Kosovo intervention was a mistake. Clinton was dead wrong and the real resons for the war waged there are murky and not very nice imho.

                but then isn't it funny and sad how every administration makes you regret the one before?
                "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                • #9
                  Let's not forget that Clinton waited three years before intervening in Bosnia.

                  And let's not forget that Europe didn't do anything significant to stop the killings, except impose an arms embargo that effectively prevented the Bosnian Muslims from defending themselves. And let's not further forget the European 'peacekeepers' effectively stood by while genocide was conducted at places like Srebrenica.

                  Kosovo was the same story - waiting until enough civilians were killed before intervention.

                  The same bunch of 'anti-war activists', 'liberals', 'humanitarians' made very much the same arguments as they are making about Iraq now (e.g. it's a sectarian conflict and there's no way we can stop these people from killing one another).
                  Last edited by Ogukuo72; 03 Aug 07, 05:56.

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                  • #10
                    perhaps on Bosnia.

                    but in Kosovo it was clearly not "killing of Civilians" at all.

                    Serbia used police to fight terrorists. I dont 'remember seeing proof of any excessive brutality or excessive collateral damage in Kosovo done by Serbs - at least nothing in the scale of typical US military actions around the world.

                    Kosovo was a(nother) farce and shame, and I'm not even a Milosevic lover here.
                    "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                    • #11
                      The last thing the UNited States needs now is ground involvement in Africa. Let the French and African Union deal with it. 20-30 years from now once Iraq is stable maybe.. but now, no way.
                      Welcome to the adult world. Kinda sucks when you have to be the responsible ones and take all the pot shots from the chagrined lefties and mongoloid celebrities, who don't know their collective posteriors from sound economic policy. - 98ZJUSMC

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                      • #12
                        yeah, african nations shoudl learn to deal with stuff themselves, not always beeing helped (and corrupted and exploited in the process) by others.

                        or they'll never grow out of poverty, famine and butt-naked ignorance. Africa can't be a drain on itself and the develoiped world for ever.

                        of course China is now there in full force.
                        "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                          McCain wanted to send ground troops into Kosovo.
                          Most Republicans thought war was a bad ideal. Their policy review noted the laundry list of fumbles by the Clinton Administration, which only promised (and did) continue in war.

                          Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                          Republicans wanted to lift the arms embargo against the Bosnian Muslims.
                          Didn't Clinton permit Iran to ship arms to Bosnian Muslims covertly? I personally had reservations about the ideal all together.

                          Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                          That said...The "Wag the Dog" crap about Clinton was pretty close to treasonous behavior on the part of some Republicans.
                          In all fairness, Clinton himself encouraged the notion by flip-flopping on his Kosovo policy on an almost weekly basis.
                          "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
                            yeah, african nations shoudl learn to deal with stuff themselves, not always beeing helped (and corrupted and exploited in the process) by others.

                            or they'll never grow out of poverty, famine and butt-naked ignorance. Africa can't be a drain on itself and the develoiped world for ever.
                            The same can be said for the Middle East. Africa is simply the poor man's Middle East. All of the smaller powers are trying to do what the largest power is trying to do in the Middle East - stablize for exploitation.
                            "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Deltapooh View Post
                              Most Republicans thought war was a bad ideal. Their policy review noted the laundry list of fumbles by the Clinton Administration, which only promised (and did) continue in war.
                              I don't know if it was most...But there was a vocal opposition from a lot of Republicans to anything Clinton wanted to do.


                              Originally posted by Deltapooh
                              Didn't Clinton permit Iran to ship arms to Bosnian Muslims covertly? I personally had reservations about the ideal all together.
                              I think he did...At the same time he was beating up the Republicans for suggesting it.


                              Originally posted by Deltapooh
                              In all fairness, Clinton himself encouraged the notion by flip-flopping on his Kosovo policy on an almost weekly basis.
                              It's amazing how such a skilled politician could shoot himself in his own foot so often.
                              Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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