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An Alternate Opinion on How the US is Doing in Iraq...

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  • An Alternate Opinion on How the US is Doing in Iraq...

    -From another forum I frequent. Serious responses and discussion only, please - this is not a troll for Bush-haters!

    How about a little credit where it's due?

    Since the end of "official" hostilities, the following have been accomplished:

    ... over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their fellow citizens.

    ... nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning.

    ... the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.

    ... on Monday, October 6th power generation hit 4,518 megawatts-exceeding the prewar average.

    ... all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges are open, as are nearly all primary and secondary schools.

    ... by October 1st, Coalition forces had rehab-ed over 1,500 schools - 500 more than scheduled.

    ... teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries.

    ... all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open..

    ... doctors salaries are at least eight times what they were under Saddam.

    ... pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing to 700 tons in May to a current total of 12,000 tons.

    ... the Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccination doses to Iraq's children.

    ... a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq's 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked canals which now irrigate tens of thousands of farms. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi men and women.

    ... we have restored over three-quarters of prewar telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable water production.

    ... there are 4,900 full-service telephone connections. We expect 50,000 by year-end.

    ... the wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles to satellite dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are coming to life in all major cities and towns.

    ... 95 percent of all prewar bank customers have service and first-time customers are opening accounts daily.

    ... Iraqi banks are making loans to finance businesses.

    ... the central bank is fully independent.

    ... Iraq has one of the worlds most growth-oriented investment and banking laws.

    ... Iraq has a single, unified currency for the first time in 15 years.

    ... satellite TV dishes are legal.

    ... foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying mandatory and extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for minders and other government spies.

    ... there is no Ministry of Information.

    ... there are more than 170 newspapers.

    ... you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street corner.

    ... foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free to come and go.

    ... a nation that had not one single element - legislative, judicial or executive - of a representative government, now does.

    ... in Baghdad alone residents have selected 88 advisory councils. Baghdad's first democratic transfer of power in 35 years happened when the city council elected its new chairman.

    ... today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business, school and professional organizations are electing their leaders all over the country.

    ... 25 ministers, selected by the most representative governing body in Iraq's history, run the day-to-day business of government.

    ... the Iraqi government regularly participates in international events. Since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two dozen international meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference Summit. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs today announced that it is reopening over 30 Iraqi embassies around the world.

    ... Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren't.

    ... for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.

    .... the Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of a strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.

    ... Uday and Queasy are dead - and no longer feeding innocent Iraqis to the zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation, torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or murdering critics.

    ... children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with the government.

    ... political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.

    ... millions of long suffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual terror.

    ... Saudis will hold municipal elections.

    ... Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents.

    ... Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.

    ... the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian -- a Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and for peace.

    ... Saddam is gone.

    ... Iraq is free.

    ... President Bush has not faltered or failed.

    ... Yet, little or none of this information has been published by the Press corps that prides itself on bringing you all the news that's important.

    Iraq under US lead has come further in six months than Germany did in seven years or Japan did in nine years following WWII. Military deaths from fanatic Nazi's, and Japanese numbered in the thousands and continued for over three years after WWII victory was declared.

    Now, take into account that almost every Democratic leader in the House and Senate has fought President Bush on every aspect of his handling of this country's war and the post-war reconstruction; and that they continue to claim on a daily basis on national TV that this conflict has been a failure.

    Taking everything into consideration, even the unfortunate loss of our sons and daughters in this conflict, do you think anyone else in the
    world could have accomplished as much as the United States and the Bush administration in so short a period of time?

  • #2
    I agree a lot has been accomplished since the end of hostilities in Iraq, a lot more than the Democrats want to admit.

    Comment


    • #3
      We helped people, alot of people. If no other reason was ever good enough, that one is, and should always be.


      Goblin
      Mega Campaign Screaming Eagles and Das Reich Design Team Member
      DAS REICH CAMPAIGN, and THE SPWaW ICON GUIDE AVAILABLE AT: The SP:WaW Depot
      In difficult ground, press on. In encircled ground, devise strategems. In death ground, fight.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hello, some of the points are interesting. Could I please have the source, I will post it to the state-television in agonised self-searching post-ex-socialist (hurts to write) Sweden?

        Here, the state-news (I have only a few cable channels and they are even more stalinist) typically open with something like: "Today two more US soldiers of the coalition forces in Irak were killed in an explosion outside..."

        I think generally bad news sell better than good news (I have a strong feeling this comes from some Calvinist-Lutheran gene).

        Could be nice to hear something positive! We have alot of Iraqi and Kurds here, and I (VERY unreliable ) never heard them being negative about the US invading.
        "You can't change the rules in the middle of the game."
        "Hey, you just made that rule up."


        Heil Dicke Bertha!

        Comment


        • #5
          That's the problem Dicke, that's all anyone hears is the bad news. No matter what country your in all you hear about is the suicide bombers. Evidently the fact that power and water are above pre-war levels isn't news worthy.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by CPangracs
            Iraq under US lead has come further in six months than Germany did in seven years or Japan did in nine years following WWII. Military deaths from fanatic Nazi's, and Japanese numbered in the thousands and continued for over three years after WWII victory was declared.

            Now, take into account that almost every Democratic leader in the House and Senate has fought President Bush on every aspect of his handling of this country's war and the post-war reconstruction; and that they continue to claim on a daily basis on national TV that this conflict has been a failure.

            Taking everything into consideration, even the unfortunate loss of our sons and daughters in this conflict, do you think anyone else in the
            world could have accomplished as much as the United States and the Bush administration in so short a period of time?
            These improvements are not concrete proof of success. We saw similar seemingly great achievements in Vietnam in the late 1950's and early 1960's, as well as Somalia early on. Yet, they evaporated because of flawed foriegn policy. You can't look at the day-to-day improvements and try to gauge success no more than you can look at daily failures. You must consider the policies being employed and their long term effect on conditions.

            To my knowledge, I don't know of anyone who really disputes the fact that Iraqis are better off today than they were a year ago. Despite many of the hardships they face, none overshadow the hope of a better tomorrow, which until the Coalition came thru was nothing more than a distant fanasty. Yet, that doesn't mean we sit down and give Bush a pat on the back, when so much work has to be done.

            The mistakes of the Bush Administration include:

            1. Overstating the threat Iraq's WMD program; this damaged American credibility unnecessarily. We had good intelligence of what Saddam was doing, but tried to state we knew every detail, which was false.

            2. Ignored the issue of oil; again affecting American credibility. Bush was so concerned about giving off the impression the war was about oil, he played into the hands of his critics. He even classified reports, which clearly pointed to problems in many public analysis of the Iraqi oil situation. He could have just admitted that oil was important, and we intended to establish stable conditions for it's flow. People don't like that, tough crap. We've been ensuring the flow of oil to the west for decades.

            3. Ignored good accurate reports on the Iraqi situation politically and socially. Several departments were well respected reports expressing the need for a massive humanitarian effort to be in place. Bush did indicate he was factoring that in. Then came the UN debate, and he wasted precious time trying to be flexible on an issue he wasn't. Worse, Bush miscalculated exactly how bad Saddam had gutted the political system in Iraq. He thought we could remove the regime while preserving the basics of a working government system. That didn't happen.

            4. Continues to try to force American democracy on Iraq. When I read the 11 points decided upon by the new Iraqi government, I knew we were in trouble. No where did it include the fact that Iraq would be an Islamic and Arab state. Equal rights for women, no discussion of how Islamic law would be considered in Iraq's structure are not Iraqi ideals. They are American. Whether we forced it upon directly, or through our presense, it is not a good sign.

            Establishing a widely acceptable constitution in Iraq is the most critical battle to be won. We should do what we can to support it. However, with more than a dozen factions all seemingly less willing to compromise in the name of peace and prosperity, the last thing the US needs to do is to push it's own ideals on the council. The only unity that will bring will involve killing American forces.

            5. Overstating our capabilities to change Iraq; from the get go, Bush should have made it clear we're not there to babysit the Iraqi people. Furthermore, we can't solve all their problems. The burden of how a new Iraq will materialize rest solely with the Iraqi people. And I'm not certain they are ready for the task at hand. By overstating what the Coalition could achieve, then failing to live up to it, the ideal of failure becomes the obvious conclusion, even though matters are beyond our control.

            Bush should have told the Iraqi people and the world just how difficult a task we have. More importantly, he should have established conditions for withdrawal, which was the case in Afghanistan. Now Bush has the US committed to an effort, which everyone in the world "expects" America to finish in a particular manner. Failure to do so will be perceived as a defeat.

            6. Engaging in Politics. Bush has taken steps to satisfy wealthy contributors to the Republican party. He is also allowing the 2004 Election campaign to effect his decisions.

            Yes, I can go on and on about what America has accomplished in Iraq. However, operational success doesn't depend solely on capturing Saddam, re-opening schools, or even making sure Iraqi children get their vaccination shots (although all are encouraging). It will rest solely on the policy decisions made by our government in reference to the long term stability and security of Iraq, and how Iraqis perceive our contribution overall. Many of these conclusions can't be reached until Iraq's second major election without the heavy presence of foriegn entities.
            Last edited by Deltapooh; 23 Dec 03, 12:51.
            "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

            Comment


            • #7
              I should add that the media should focus on the day-to-day improvements in Iraq for the sake of our troops. Speaking with troops coming back from Bosnia, I noted that soldiers need to feel they are accomplishing things and making the world a better place. No matter what the long term issues are, the day-to-day developments are important to our servicemen and servicewomen. Which is one reason why I'll be renewing my subscription to Time Magazine for some time to come.
              "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Deltapooh
                I should add that the media should focus on the day-to-day improvements in Iraq for the sake of our troops. Speaking with troops coming back from Bosnia, I noted that soldiers need to feel they are accomplishing things and making the world a better place. No matter what the long term issues are, the day-to-day developments are important to our servicemen and servicewomen. Which is one reason why I'll be renewing my subscription to Time Magazine for some time to come.
                Is there some reason you changed my name in your quote? I find that very immature and not worthy of this forum, but kids will be kids, right?


                Did you see the Dec. 15 issue? This is why I will NEVER purchase Time again - they have an article on the insurgents in Iraq, which included a detailed report of the planning and execution of an attack on Amaricans at the Baghdad Airport, among other things.

                I don't care what these people think, I don't care about their ideology. They are the reason it is taking us so long to stabilize the country. If any of those reporters are Americans, and they did nothing to prevent a witnessed attack on Americans, I believe they should be tried as war criminals.

                I'm sickened.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dicke Bertha
                  Hello, some of the points are interesting. Could I please have the source, I will post it to the state-television in agonised self-searching post-ex-socialist (hurts to write) Sweden?

                  Here, the state-news (I have only a few cable channels and they are even more stalinist) typically open with something like: "Today two more US soldiers of the coalition forces in Irak were killed in an explosion outside..."

                  I think generally bad news sell better than good news (I have a strong feeling this comes from some Calvinist-Lutheran gene).

                  Could be nice to hear something positive! We have alot of Iraqi and Kurds here, and I (VERY unreliable ) never heard them being negative about the US invading.
                  My source was a post in another forum, but I'm sure it's origin was elsewhere. It might take some searching, but Google is our friend!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CPangracs
                    Is there some reason you changed my name in your quote? I find that very immature and not worthy of this forum, but kids will be kids, right?
                    My guess is that you are jumping the gun on this one. I've never seen Deltapooh make ad hominen attacks against any of the other forum members. It is more likely a spelling, formatting, or transcription error. Those, he's made a few of...as we all have.
                    I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JAMiAM
                      My guess is that you are jumping the gun on this one. I've never seen Deltapooh make ad hominen attacks against any of the other forum members. It is more likely a spelling, formatting, or transcription error. Those, he's made a few of...as we all have.
                      Possible, yet embarrassing nonetheless. If I quote, I quote, and I try and proofread,...almost anal about that. AND NO ASS JOKES!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CPangracs
                        Is there some reason you changed my name in your quote? I find that very immature and not worthy of this forum, but kids will be kids, right?
                        It was an unintentional error, which I do apologize for.

                        Originally posted by CPangracs
                        Did you see the Dec. 15 issue? This is why I will NEVER purchase Time again - they have an article on the insurgents in Iraq, which included a detailed report of the planning and execution of an attack on Amaricans at the Baghdad Airport, among other things.

                        I don't care what these people think, I don't care about their ideology. They are the reason it is taking us so long to stabilize the country. If any of those reporters are Americans, and they did nothing to prevent a witnessed attack on Americans, I believe they should be tried as war criminals.

                        I'm sickened.
                        There are a number of factors to consider. First, journalists must maintain a neutral status for their own field safety. Running to CENTCOM with this information would have turned the reporter into a combatant. Daniel Pearl is a example of how dangerous the situation is for the journalists. Terrorists are naturally paranoid. This makes their relationship with the media quite volitile.

                        Secondly, the reporter did inform CENTCOM through the article. I hope someone at HQ read Time Magazine and employed the information to enhance security.

                        I understand the logic of your position. I don't enjoy entertaining anyone holding back information, which can save the lives of our troops and others. However, that must be balanced with our need to maintain an open channel for information to flow in and out. Reporters rarely keep good secrets beyond protecting the identity of sources. Had the journalists not been provided the informatioon used in their report, the consequences might have been worse.

                        During the war, the US didn't use the force necessary to completely cut Baghdad off from the outside world. Commanders felt it was more important to have a window into Iraq's hierarchies rather than isolating Iraqi troops from their leaders.
                        "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          It could of been seen as 'grass' instead of 'gracs'. No 'ass' joke needed.
                          "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

                          Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Deltapooh
                            It was an unintentional error, which I do apologize for.



                            There are a number of factors to consider. First, journalists must maintain a neutral status for their own field safety. Running to CENTCOM with this information would have turned the reporter into a combatant. Daniel Pearl is a example of how dangerous the situation is for the journalists. Terrorists are naturally paranoid. This makes their relationship with the media quite volitile.

                            Secondly, the reporter did inform CENTCOM through the article. I hope someone at HQ read Time Magazine and employed the information to enhance security.

                            I understand the logic of your position. I don't enjoy entertaining anyone holding back information, which can save the lives of our troops and others. However, that must be balanced with our need to maintain an open channel for information to flow in and out. Reporters rarely keep good secrets beyond protecting the identity of sources. Had the journalists not been provided the informatioon used in their report, the consequences might have been worse.

                            During the war, the US didn't use the force necessary to completely cut Baghdad off from the outside world. Commanders felt it was more important to have a window into Iraq's hierarchies rather than isolating Iraqi troops from their leaders.
                            No worries about the name thing.

                            I absoluely agree with you on all points, however, I also feel that a reporter should be prepared to suffer the repercussions of their INaction!

                            I understand the REASONING behind, but it doesn't mean I have to like it. Like I said, I don't mind the reporter delving into the how of what these guys are up to, but to actually be WITH them as they did this is insane.

                            Do you think that, if an embedded reporter with an infantry unit were to report that a squad mowed-down a group of civilians, that it would just be published in Der Welt or something? No, there would be an uproar in the world community immediately, and the US would get crucified!

                            Here we have a case of "civilians" doing something similar to soldiers, yet it's expected, accepted, and encouraged.

                            Jeez, sickened a third time in one day,...I'm going to lay down.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by CPangracs
                              AND NO ASS JOKES!
                              I would never dream of making an ass joke, but I would greatly appreciate if you would be a pal and get that shiny penny that's over there in the corner of the room - the one right next to the bar of soap...
                              I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

                              Comment

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