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  • Iraq (again)

    http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/...cia/index.html

    http://www.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_arti...=26124&lang=en

    Maybe we can collect (real, not just simply "ami go home" style) hints for Bush!

    -my proposal would be drastic: abadon Iraq and the victory, bring in neutral but Arab/Muslim countries for peace-keeping, give them one year calm and after let them make free election.

    Other opinions are welcome!
    a brain cell

  • #2
    Originally posted by laszlo.nemedi
    http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/...cia/index.html

    http://www.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_arti...=26124&lang=en

    Maybe we can collect (real, not just simply "ami go home" style) hints for Bush!

    -my proposal would be drastic: abadon Iraq and the victory, bring in neutral but Arab/Muslim countries for peace-keeping, give them one year calm and after let them make free election.

    Other opinions are welcome!
    Wow. I never knew how much people still hate Americans...look at the comments at the bottom of the Iraqwar.ru! They make liberals look good! Do you actually believe these comments? "Kill All Americans in Iraq!" "Eat sh*t." So many anti-American comments...typical of liberals, all play and no brain.

    No, I'd prefer to stay in Iraq, lest we leave, a fundamentalist government takes over and makes the matter worse than is before.

    The Arab nations aren't democratic, what makes you think they will even allow free elections in Iraq, if they don't allow such things in their own countries. Something to think about, huh? Turkey rejected any option to deploy the troops in Iraq, even though the Turkish parliament narrowly passed the bill authorizing the deployments.

    The Iraqis aren't going to calm down, as soon Americans leave, the guerrilla leaders, YOUR favorite freedom fighters who love to kill Americans, are going to take over Iraq and screw it to pieces. WITHOUT American presences, Iraqis won't enjoy the fruits of newfound freedom, they will soon fall apart because of some arrogant guerrilla fighter will like the idea of a dictatorship.

    Dan
    Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

    "Aim small, miss small."

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cheetah772
      Wow. I never knew how much people still hate Americans...look at the comments at the bottom of the Iraqwar.ru! They make liberals look good! Do you actually believe these comments? "Kill All Americans in Iraq!" "Eat sh*t." So many anti-American comments...typical of liberals, all play and no brain.
      I think they are Russian natinalist (closer to the conservatives, and they hate liberalism

      I put that link to strengthen the cnn story, but it is new to me you didnot see any anti-american comments. Sorry but it is very usual (one of the party which was fell out the parliament here at the last election, state similar statement...)

      Originally posted by Cheetah772
      No, I'd prefer to stay in Iraq, lest we leave, a fundamentalist government takes over and makes the matter worse than is before.

      The Arab nations aren't democratic, what makes you think they will even allow free elections in Iraq, if they don't allow such things in their own countries. Something to think about, huh? Turkey rejected any option to deploy the troops in Iraq, even though the Turkish parliament narrowly passed the bill authorizing the deployments.

      The Iraqis aren't going to calm down, as soon Americans leave, the guerrilla leaders, YOUR favorite freedom fighters who love to kill Americans, are going to take over Iraq and screw it to pieces. WITHOUT American presences, Iraqis won't enjoy the fruits of newfound freedom, they will soon fall apart because of some arrogant guerrilla fighter will like the idea of a dictatorship.

      Dan
      Good point on the free election I have to develop my opinion I think UN should control the situation, but only Arabs/Muslims can be the viewable armed persons.

      And what is your solution, staying there and waiting: when Iraqies forget their deads, accepting Christian soldiers in their holy land, and learn how to live in democracy? It will be a long wait (years? decades?) and so many good men death (American soldiers, I am serious, I don't hate Americans).
      a brain cell

      Comment


      • #4
        It is not just American internal affair

        http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html

        and many Hungarians are out there...
        a brain cell

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree that if the Shiites and the Sunnis form an anti-American alliance we will be defeated as occupants. Our pacification methods are too weak and indecisive (compared to the Nazis in Europe for example). We keep on punching the insurgents with boxing gloves on, not really causing any long-term harm.

          The only reason Afghanistan fell and was pacified with some success is the multiple factions fighting each other and how the U.S. was able to use those internal divisions to its advantage.

          "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
          --Frederick II, King of Prussia

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by MonsterZero
            ...Our pacification methods are too weak and indecisive (compared to the Nazis in Europe for example). We keep on punching the insurgents with boxing gloves on...
            Hello,

            Are you sure this was the best example to pick?

            Nemo

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MonsterZero
              I agree that if the Shiites and the Sunnis form an anti-American alliance we will be defeated as occupants. Our pacification methods are too weak and indecisive (compared to the Nazis in Europe for example). We keep on punching the insurgents with boxing gloves on, not really causing any long-term harm.

              The only reason Afghanistan fell and was pacified with some success is the multiple factions fighting each other and how the U.S. was able to use those internal divisions to its advantage.
              Nazi's "pacification" caused the world's alliance against them.

              Harder punch doesnot solve the problem in short term (and I am sure not in long-term), because America cannot control the whole Arab world, so they can move in and out anytime, and USA cannot identify them. The Iraqies will not help because they are (at least) neutral.

              So, what to do? A brainstorming...
              a brain cell

              Comment


              • #8
                The neo-cons will just ignore this report like all the rest. They just don't understand that most of the world doesn't agree with their neo-con agenda. I repeat, the average Iraqi doesn't think like a typical American neo-con nor do they have the same opinions on things.

                Let's face it, the neo-con thinking is inconsistent at best. If the US was invaded they say they would be the first people to join the resistance groups and fight back. They would be the first to kill any collaborators and label them as traitors. They are the ones who like to beat their chest, wave their flags, and talk about freedom from foreign tyranny such as the United Nations.

                However now that they are the invaders they expect those being occupied to sit back and offer no resistance. They want the Iraqis to throw flower petals at their feet and work with them to root out resistors. They want the Iraqis to replace their entire culture and way of life with a new westernized version.
                Last edited by Chuck?; 12 Nov 03, 09:53.
                "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

                Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by laszlo.nemedi
                  I think they are Russian natinalist (closer to the conservatives, and they hate liberalism
                  Yes that's what the conservatives seem to not understand around the world. A conservative in Russia is very pro-Russian and anti-world, a conservative in Japan is very pro-Japanese and anti-world, ect. Conservatives around the world AREN'T united in their love of America and the American way of life. What they are united in is their mistrust of other people in different parts of the world.
                  "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

                  Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by laszlo.nemedi
                    -my proposal would be drastic: abadon Iraq and the victory, bring in neutral but Arab/Muslim countries for peace-keeping, give them one year calm and after let them make free election.

                    Other opinions are welcome!
                    The Iraqi Governing council has rejected 10,000 Turkish troops.......
                    We can only help so much if they won't accept the troops what canwe do?
                    "Have you forgotten the face of your father?"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by laszlo.nemedi
                      Maybe we can collect (real, not just simply "ami go home" style) hints for Bush!

                      -my proposal would be drastic: abadon Iraq and the victory, bring in neutral but Arab/Muslim countries for peace-keeping, give them one year calm and after let them make free election.

                      Other opinions are welcome!
                      - Turn over the operation to the United Nations. The US will still have a role in Iraq, just not a majority one.
                      - Start the process of free elections.
                      - Open up business in Iraq to all companies that can do the job.
                      "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

                      Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Chuck

                        - Turn over the operation to the United Nations. The US will still have a role in Iraq, just not a majority one.
                        Well, the United Nations are closing the UN offices, and it seems that the UN doesn't want the responsibility of overseeing the security in Iraq. As long the United Nations doesn't want this, the US will continue to have a major role in Iraq. After all, it was mainly Americans with British troops who did liberate Iraq from WMD threats and Saddam's regime.

                        - Start the process of free elections.
                        It's already in the process. It should be noted that most of the Iraqi council members are lacking in their responsibilities, in fact, many of them are mostly visiting the other countries, rarely showing up at the meetings. As long the Iraqis continue to do this, then the process will no doubt slow down. Don't blame the US on this one.

                        Initially, the US said it would take six months to draft a constitution, but apparently, this is not enough time to decide on how to draft a proper constitution. So, the process to free elections is undoubtedly a long one.

                        - Open up business in Iraq to all companies that can do the job.
                        We're doing that. We're opening up Iraq to US companies and other foreign companies whose countries actually supported the US such as Poland who is fast becoming the second most important foreign partner in Iraq. There are several other Eastern European companies eager to establish commercial ties with Iraq, in effect, pushing out France and German companies.

                        The goods are pouring into Iraq, though, the prices have gone through roof, many Iraqis are more than happy with that. The most serious crisis is the shortage of critical parts such as medical supplies and components needed to repair some machinery parts. The black market is flourishing for good or bad in Iraq. Now, the Iraqis can go out and buy more stuff now that the UN sanctions are lifted, all thanks to the US troops in Iraq.

                        It's something the liberals are too embarrassed to admit, that there is actually something good going on in Iraq. Must be hard for you to swallow this one.

                        Dan
                        Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                        "Aim small, miss small."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Chuck
                          Yes that's what the conservatives seem to not understand around the world. A conservative in Russia is very pro-Russian and anti-world, a conservative in Japan is very pro-Japanese and anti-world, ect. Conservatives around the world AREN'T united in their love of America and the American way of life. What they are united in is their mistrust of other people in different parts of the world.
                          And you fail to understand what passes a conservative in these countries would be actually considered, oh my, a liberal here in America, go figure that out.

                          Compared to the world, America's political spectrum is actually way behind the European and Asian political ideologies and spectrum. Nowadays, a conservative is hard to identify, usually, it simply means that he or she is being more nationalistic and relcutant to give up a part of national sovereignty for greater good of the United Nations or a regional organization.

                          Dan
                          Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                          "Aim small, miss small."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            America is Iraq's only hope at peace and security. Without our presence and support, any nation-building effort is doomed to failure.

                            The way I see it, there are two options.

                            1. Draft several versions of a new Iraqi constitution, and hold a referrendum.

                            2. Hold a Constitution Convention with delegates chosen by somekind of satisfactory system. Maybe elections, or something like that.

                            Ultimately though, America, and the world, has to realize it is the Iraqi people, who must decide how their future will be. If they choose chaos and disorder, the US and her allies should walk away feeling no guilt.

                            I will say this:

                            We Americans are a greedy vain people. Our pursuit for prosperity and security might very well have led us into another disaster. Yet, I don't believe any American should be ashamed of our efforts in Iraq (not Bush). The US, Britian, Australia, and a host of other nations sent troops to Iraq who died fighting a war to give a people freedom. All our mistakes, evil plots, and ignorance does not overshadow what we as a people did. We saw wrong, and did try to right it.

                            Twenty three years ago aircrews from the USAF were sitting around waiting for a planes to take them from Qatar back to the US. The soldiers were drained and depressed. Hours earlier, they had bore witness to the disaster at Desert One. Months of training for a mission all believed in went up in smoke in a matter of minutes.

                            British soldiers who were at the other end of airbase quietly brought over two cases, and left without saying anything. One of the American aircrew-members went over, picked up the cases and brought it to the awaiting soldiers. It was two cases of ice cold beer. On top was a note, it said,

                            "From all of us, to all of you for having the guts to try."

                            Maybe Bush *ucked this up. Maybe he abused the support given to him. Maybe we pissed the world off. Yet none of that should overshadow the mission of the American people, which was to send our sons and daughters to their deaths to free a people and hopefully expand our own security. Few Iraqis hate Coalition forces because they removed Saddam Hussein.

                            If America must pull back, so be it. Yet, I don't believe so many Americans should turn away from the first objective of this war. We did come to the aid of a people in need. At least we tried.

                            Okay, now back to criticizing that moron Bush. At least the world wasn't stupid enough to follow him into hell for a few bucks.
                            Last edited by Deltapooh; 12 Nov 03, 11:46.
                            "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

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                            • #15
                              Bush is already looking for a way out of Iraq. He may go with an interim government and a provisional constitution.

                              Comment

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