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U.S. Soldiers in Iraq Executed

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  • U.S. Soldiers in Iraq Executed

    They have found the bodies of the two missing U.S. soldiers. IMHO fighting this conflict in a knightly fashion won't be possible.

    I saw a documentary about the first Gulf War and one of the Americans who got interviewed, an M-1 Abrams loader in GW I, spoke with disgust (he was a sensitive fellow) about an armored ambush that targeted an Iraqi truck column. One of the trucks was a tanker which blew up setting the entire column on fire. All the doors opened and scores of Iraqis with their clothes on fire ran into the night. The U.S. tanks shot all those burning people dead.

    This was just one of the many examples that illustrate why those people are doing what they're doing. They have some serious scores to settle with the U.S.

    IMHO, all this talk about bringing freedom & democracy to the poor people of Iraq is a mistake, it distorts the truth about the situation and conditions our troops for poor discipline.

    "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
    --Frederick II, King of Prussia

  • #2
    Let's face it, the Iraqi people have been through a lot in the last 13 years. Three wars that cost the lives of hundreds of thousands, the brutal regime of Saddam Hussein that ruled with a iron fist, and years of sanctions that have limited goods to the people on the street. The country is a mess and will take decades to fix. There are a lot of angry Iraqis with scores to settle out there.

    I really feel for the American soldiers who have to patrol the cities and towns of Iraq. On the one hand they are expected to be friendly with the population to present a good image of the US force. At the same time there is the real danger that the same population is out to kill them.
    Last edited by Chuck?; 28 Jun 03, 23:17.
    "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

    Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)


    • #3
      As the situation in Iraq is becoming more serious almost by the day the question remains as to how the US Gov. is going to implement change that can lead to a stable democratic Nation emerging from the mess. Right now it does look like Washington is at a loss as to what to do. One of the major premises of the invasion was that the Iraqis would not only welcome but also actively co-operate with the occupying powers in rebuilding the country. This has not really happened.
      Also, once the euphoria of Saddam's overthrow had worn off and the continuing failure of essential services became apparent the Iraqis are now I think disillusioned and angry with the Americans.
      The future looks bleak and a Vietnam type conflict is beginning to emerge. Almost daily attacks now on US forces which look likely to get worse. Of course the casualties are very unlikely to be on anything like the scale of that earlier conflict but the 'Quagmire' like aspect is there and the dilemma of how do you withdraw from such a situation without serious loss of face and a consequent diminution of status on the World Stage.


      • #4
        You don't want to know how they died. It more dangerous here now than it was during the war. President Bush completely failed to level with the American people and tell them what the true costs and length of this deployment would really be. The administration needs to do a much better job.


        • #5

          From a purely military point of view what do you think can be done to stave off an escalation of the situation over there? Is there anything obvious that is not apparent to the outside world about the setup in Iraq right now.
          BTW: Happy Birthday! Hope you get to enjoy it anyway.



          • #6
            The Bush Administration didn't consider all the consequences of war in an unbiased manner. They had an objective and rejected any ideal that deviated from a course to achieve those goals. The lack of a clear nation-building plan was my primary reservation going into this operation.

            As Chuck pointed out, the Iraqi people have experienced decades of tyranny from government authority. Now the people don't have much to fear, but still have the kind of suspicions, and skeptism one fines in these strictly controlled countries. Coalition troops are not seen as liberators, but replacements. Alot of Iraqis thought the US didn't care about them, and just wanted the oil, and taking out Saddam.

            In addition, you have Baathist Party members, fundamentalists, and nationalists roaming about. Everybody that doesn't want a gun has one. Everyone who wants a gun has two. Few people are working. There is no school. Law and order are in disarray. It's very hot. All this means people have more reason to be pissed and too much time on their hands, which is being used to kill troops.

            I won't say all this is organized. Imagine two men armed men passing up each other on a street. Both don't know if the other wants a fight. As they close range, each puts take their weapon off safety. Someone makes a bad move, and somebody gets dead. Tragically, the men chose to shoot rather than wait to learn neither meant harm to the other.

            All we've seen doesn't mean things have gone so far south they can't be recovered. The Iraqi people need to see changes immediately to give them more hope. That can be done by holding elections to send delegates to Baghdad. These individuals will have the sole purpose of representing their people, and should be encouraged by the US to be prepared to make concessions.

            It's from these delegates that we can see just what can be achieved. If few are willing to make necessary compromises to establish a popular Constitution, the US should begin making pre-parations to withdraw from Iraq. The delegates must understand what's on the line. And the US should make it clear we are more than willing to leave Iraq and institutionalize far reaching con-sequences.

            Iraq needs America. Without our support, any new government won't get recognized in the UN, obtain loans, or really advance. I'm more than willing to abandon Iraq in favor of staking all American political capital on peace between Palestine and Israel. I doubt a chaotic Iraq will find much financial support to rebuild it's damaged oil infrastructure.

            Now is the time to decide what to do. If our objectives can't be achieved, the Coalition should withdraw. Our national security interest have been protected. Saddam is out of control, and any new government, which lacks appropriate international support, is not a serious threat to our political interest. A stable Iraq is important, but as the world feels, we can't take out all our enemies.

            If our objectives are still obtainable (and I believe they are), the US should work harder to show some results not only at home, but among Iraqis. I don't believe the violence is widespread or very organized. People are frustrated, and are lashing out at the symbol of that frustration. As OPERATION: RESTORE DEMOCRACY proved, we can turn a skeptical population around. It's hard to trust a bunch of people dressed in combat gear, backed up by some of the most frightening and deadly pieces of machinery built.

            We need to do more to protect our troops though. I believe some of these combat deaths, including this incident, was avoidable. We need more troops. And we should re-double our efforts to build a strong, but trustworthy security force.

            Finally, I believe the US should put in place more capable and experienced people to lead the nation-building effort. You need people that is willing to walk into a village without a gun, and sit down to talk to local leaders at the neighborhood and town level. Townhall meetings with troops should be held. The people must have a non-violent outlet.

            The US has an obligation to help the Iraqi people. However, success depends on those who live in the country. If the various factions are not willing to role up their sleeves and do the work that is necessary, the US should withdraw. We're not there yet, but are approaching a point where we need to make some critical decisions.
            "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942


            • #7
              12 years after the First Gulf War the White House went after Saddam without a nation-rebuilding plan?

              "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
              --Frederick II, King of Prussia


              • #8
                I think there was a plan but it hasn't worked out. The propaganda of Iraqis falling in love with American liberators was believed at the highest levels of the government (GWB). Hopefully someone colder and more cynical (Cheney, Rumsfield) has more realistic plans in place.
                "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

                Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)


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