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  • #31
    Originally posted by kelt06 View Post
    ...it's called "ethnic cleansing".
    You Europeans certainly ought to be able to recognize that...seeing as it has been one of your favorite pass times for hundreds of years.
    Later - Tater
    "Why I have a greater affinity to Israel than to the Muslim world after 9/11: Watching a death-match fight on Animal Planet once, I found myself instinctively rooting for the mammal over the reptile."

    Comment


    • #32
      Most of the so called "refugees" are second and third generation. Unlike in Jordan,Israel and, in the US where the offspring are automatically US citizens, they are not citizens of many of the "hosting" countries they reside in. Robert
      For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by JCFalkenbergIII View Post
        Most of the so called "refugees" are second and third generation. Unlike in Jordan,Israel and, in the US where the offspring are automatically US citizens, they are not citizens of many of the "hosting" countries they reside in. Robert
        It is a false statment as far as Jordanie is concerned:


        Since 1988, thousands of those yellow-ID card Palestinians had their Jordanian citizenship revoked in order to prevent the possibility that they might become permanent residents of the country. Jordan's Interior Minister Nayef al-Kadi said:

        "Our goal is to prevent Israel from emptying the Palestinian territories of their original inhabitants," the minister explained, confirming that the kingdom had begun revoking the citizenship of Palestinians. "We should be thanked for taking this measure," he said. "We are fulfilling our national duty because Israel wants to expel the Palestinians from their homeland."


        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee


        As for the Israeli Arabs, they are heavily discriminated as citizens.


        kelt

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by kelt06 View Post
          It is a false statment as far as Jordanie is concerned:


          Since 1988, thousands of those yellow-ID card Palestinians had their Jordanian citizenship revoked in order to prevent the possibility that they might become permanent residents of the country. Jordan's Interior Minister Nayef al-Kadi said:

          "Our goal is to prevent Israel from emptying the Palestinian territories of their original inhabitants," the minister explained, confirming that the kingdom had begun revoking the citizenship of Palestinians. "We should be thanked for taking this measure," he said. "We are fulfilling our national duty because Israel wants to expel the Palestinians from their homeland."
          Got to hand to the Jordanians, this is one smooth move. Get rid of Pali terrorist scum and blame it on Israel. Talk about killing two birds with one stone!

          As for the Israeli Arabs, they are heavily discriminated as citizens.
          No they aren't...
          Later - Tater
          "Why I have a greater affinity to Israel than to the Muslim world after 9/11: Watching a death-match fight on Animal Planet once, I found myself instinctively rooting for the mammal over the reptile."

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by kelt06 View Post
            Are the Australians, Canadians , or New Zealanders British ?
            Kelt old boy, you manage to confuse me time and again...
            An estimated 700.000 to 900.000 Palestinians were forced to leave, first, as a result of clashes between Israelis and Palestinians, and then by the Arab-Israeli war, in which a political-military strategy of expulsion had been marked by several massacres, it's called "ethnic cleansing".


            kelt
            So when the Arab nations asked, or forced, the Arab residents out of the new state of Israel, so they could work easier to finish off the Jews it's ethnic cleansing?

            Good to know, but I'm afraid the complaints should be aimed at the Arab nations who actually carried it out.

            Originally posted by Tater View Post
            No they aren't...
            Give Kelt some credit, just because he lies and "twists" the truth doesn't mean he don't know what he's talking about.

            The Arab-Israelis are discriminated against, but in a positive manner, for them that is.

            They get all the rights any other Israel citizen is entitled to, only without holding a single requirement.

            They don't serve in the military (or any other equal form), they don't pay tax, they aren't obliged to any building or traffic rules (sometimes it seems they aren't obliged to any rule...), they make rules against the Israeli state, they spy for our enemies and call for the utter destruction to the Jews and their land.

            Would the US, French or any other Parliament accept these kinds of things?
            Having Parliament members who call for and make rules against their own country?

            They don't pay for Universities, get more discounts at housing, it's actually way easier and comfortable to be an Arab in the Jewish land.

            As for negative discrimination, it exists ten folds from their Arab family, something about the jealousy of them living in a free, democratic and successful nation that gets to them...

            Comment


            • #36
              Israel ethnic cleansing 1947/1948

              Originally posted by Golani View Post
              Kelt old boy, you manage to confuse me time and again...


              So when the Arab nations asked, or forced, the Arab residents out of the new state of Israel, so they could work easier to finish off the Jews it's ethnic cleansing?

              Good to know, but I'm afraid the complaints should be aimed at the Arab nations who actually carried it out.
              Golani, the truth in that matter comes from the Israeli archives:


              In the opening pages of "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem", Benny Morris offers the outlines of an overall answer: using a map that shows the 369 Arab towns and villages in Israel (within its 1949 borders), he lists, area by area, the reasons for the departure of the local population (9). In 45 cases he admits that he does not know. The inhabitants of the other 228 localities left under attack by Jewish troops, and in 41 cases they were EXPELLED by military force. In 90 other localities, the Palestinians were in a state of panic following the fall of a neighbouring town or village, or in fear of an enemy attack, or because of rumours circulated by the Jewish army - particularly after the 9 April 1948 massacre of 250 inhabitants of Deir Yassin, when the news of the killings swept the country like wildfire.

              By contrast, he found only six cases of departures at the instigation of local Arab authorities. "There is no evidence to show that the Arab states and the AHC wanted a mass exodus or issued blanket orders or appeals to the Palestinians to flee their homes (though in certain areas the inhabitants of specific villages were ordered by Arab commanders or the AHC to leave, mainly for strategic reasons)." ("The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem", p. 129). On the contrary, anyone who fled was actually threatened with "severe punishment". As for the broadcasts by Arab radio stations allegedly calling on people to flee, a detailed listening to recordings of their programmes of that period shows that the claims were invented for pure propaganda.

              Ilan Pappe, a professor at the University of Haifa, devotes two chapters of his book "The Making of the Arab- Israeli Conflict, 1947-1951" to these issues. Eschewing the caution of Morris's position, he concludes that "Plan D can be regarded in many respects as a master plan for expulsion. The plan was not conceived out of the blue - expulsion was considered as one of many means for retaliation against Arab attacks on Jewish convoys and settlements; nevertheless, it was also regarded as one of the best means of ensuring the domination of the Jews in the areas captured by the Israeli army"


              http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story674.html

              kelt

              Comment


              • #37
                Discriminations suffered by Israeli Arabs

                Originally posted by Golani View Post
                The Arab-Israelis are discriminated against, but in a positive manner, for them that is.

                They get all the rights any other Israel citizen is entitled to, only without holding a single requirement.

                They don't serve in the military (or any other equal form), they don't pay tax, they aren't obliged to any building or traffic rules (sometimes it seems they aren't obliged to any rule...), they make rules against the Israeli state, they spy for our enemies and call for the utter destruction to the Jews and their land.

                Would the US, French or any other Parliament accept these kinds of things?
                Having Parliament members who call for and make rules against their own country?

                They don't pay for Universities, get more discounts at housing, it's actually way easier and comfortable to be an Arab in the Jewish land.

                As for negative discrimination, it exists ten folds from their Arab family, something about the jealousy of them living in a free, democratic and successful nation that gets to them...
                Golani, I must concede that your are the expert liar around here :

                Through racist laws and the demolition of their homes, the confiscation of their land and looting, the Arabs of Israel have seen their overwhelming majority ownership of the land pre-1948 reduced to just 2.5%, even though they make up more than 20% of Israel's population. This is not an accident, but a planned programme by successive Israeli governments, with several goals: Forcing Arab citizens who hold Israeli citizenship to migrate and leave and, in the process, stirring up Jewish Israeli public opinion against their Arab compatriots by calling them "enemies" and "traitors" who are "working to undermine the Zionist project".

                In a report on racism in 2010 (see Maariv, 22 March, 2010), an independent anti-racism organisation claimed that the current parliament in Israel, Knesset number 18, is the most racist since the establishment of Israel in 1948, with the number of draft racist laws that aim to deprive Arab citizens of their rights has reached a new high. In 2008 there were eleven such drafts submitted to the Knesset members for consideration, in 2009 there were twelve and already in 2010 there have been twenty-one. All of these laws seek to demote the status of Arab citizens and reduce their rights, along with a constant threat to the legitimacy of their presence in Israel.


                http://www.middleeastmonitor.org.uk/...-arab-citizens



                In his conclusion, Smooha wrote that worsening inter-ethnic relations threaten to break the relative calm between the two groups, and that unless Israel works with leaders of the Arab community to institute a new policy to promote equal rights, the situation will only worsen.

                The study found that 48 percent of Arab citizens are dissatisfied with their lives in Israel, compared to 35 percent in 2003.


                http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...srael-1.292051

                Comment


                • #38
                  Discriminations against Israeli Arabs

                  Originally posted by Golani View Post
                  Give Kelt some credit, just because he lies and "twists" the truth doesn't mean he don't know what he's talking about.

                  The Arab-Israelis are discriminated against, but in a positive manner, for them that is.

                  They get all the rights any other Israel citizen is entitled to, only without holding a single requirement.

                  They don't serve in the military (or any other equal form), they don't pay tax, they aren't obliged to any building or traffic rules (sometimes it seems they aren't obliged to any rule...), they make rules against the Israeli state, they spy for our enemies and call for the utter destruction to the Jews and their land.

                  Would the US, French or any other Parliament accept these kinds of things?
                  Having Parliament members who call for and make rules against their own country?

                  They don't pay for Universities, get more discounts at housing, it's actually way easier and comfortable to be an Arab in the Jewish land.

                  As for negative discrimination, it exists ten folds from their Arab family, something about the jealousy of them living in a free, democratic and successful nation that gets to them...
                  Golani lies exposed: Discriminations against Israeli Arabs:



                  ......In February 2007, The New York Times reported that 53 percent of the impoverished families in Israel were Arabs. Since the majority of Arabs in Israel do not serve in the army, they are ineligible for many financial benefits such as scholarships and housing loans.........

                  .......Of the 40 towns in Israel with the highest unemployment rates, 36 are Arab towns. According to the Central Bank of Israel statistics for 2003, salary averages for Arab workers are 29% lower than for Jewish workers........

                  ........The Follow-Up Committee for Arab Education notes that the Israeli government spends an average of $192 per year on each Arab student compared to $1,100 per Jewish student. The drop-out rate for Arab citizens of Israel is twice as high as that of their Jewish counterparts (12 percent versus 6 percent). The same group also notes that there is a 5,000-classroom shortage in the Arab sector........

                  .....The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs. This inequality has been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, has been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and has also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents. Although the Jewish majority’s awareness of this discrimination is often quite low, it plays a central role in the sensibilities and attitudes of Arab citizens.......



                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

                  kelt

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Kelt,

                    Do you have something else besides wiki?

                    Pruitt
                    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                      Kelt,

                      Do you have something else besides wiki?

                      Pruitt
                      Well, yes have a look at my posts above, there are other sources mentionned.

                      Wikipedia is one link out of many on the subject, if any of what is written about the israeli Arab was open to contestation, it would have been flooded with changes.....

                      I picked Wiki as it summarize all the discriminations in one single text, but there are many other sources with similar informations, including Israeli sources.

                      kelt
                      Last edited by kelt06; 02 Jul 10, 17:49.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Kelt,

                        I saw the ones with another source. I will judge them for whatever value I think they have. Wiki is my last resort as a reference. A lot of stuff on it is not true. Sometimes Wiki is left alone because no one finds it.

                        I don't think you should lump all Israeli Jews into one category. They have come from all over the world. Different groups would test differently. Would the child of Ethiopian Immigrants do as well as a child of Northern European Immigrants? It is kind of like lumping all Hispanics into one category. For a number of years my local college had a lot of Hispanics from Mexico City attend and play Tennis. Many are related to a local Lady that married one. The success rate of these people would be off the chart compared to a young adult from a migratory farm Labor family. The only people that play Tennis in Mexico City are the very rich.

                        Does it suck to be an Israeli Arab? It probably does. They do have options unavailable compared to Lebanese Palestinians for instance. Maybe they would all find a better place in France? That country has a certain amount of wealth.

                        Pruitt
                        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I agree about Wiki Pruitt. Much too easy to edit a entry and to created a very biased one without any citations or sources. That has happened many times over. Some only use it as a last resort or if it cites the same information they have found elsewhere . Many will use it obviously if it fits their viewpoint when other sources do not. Robert
                          For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Pruitt,

                            Just a few weeks ago we had a big investigative story in the papers on how history is re-written in wiki and other such sources, by pro-Arab posters.

                            No, I don't have the time to look up pieces on how the Arab are treated the same as Jews here, firstly because unlike kelt I'm not retired yet, but mainly because it's just not news-worthy.

                            Exposed: "Arabs enjoy all the rights of an Israeli citizen"!
                            I just don't see it as a headline, that's not news.

                            If you'll ever stumble upon our small strip of land you'd see it for yourself, you can even join me for coffee with our Arab neighbor who's married to a Jew- that's the honorary title of ambassador of New Guinea.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Discrimination against Arab Israelis

                              Originally posted by Golani View Post
                              Pruitt,

                              Just a few weeks ago we had a big investigative story in the papers on how history is re-written in wiki and other such sources, by pro-Arab posters.

                              No, I don't have the time to look up pieces on how the Arab are treated the same as Jews here, firstly because unlike kelt I'm not retired yet, but mainly because it's just not news-worthy.

                              Exposed: "Arabs enjoy all the rights of an Israeli citizen"!
                              I just don't see it as a headline, that's not news.

                              If you'll ever stumble upon our small strip of land you'd see it for yourself, you can even join me for coffee with our Arab neighbor who's married to a Jew- that's the honorary title of ambassador of New Guinea.
                              This one is from Haaretz!

                              The relations between the state and the Arabs do not revolve only around ideology and symbols. The discrimination against Arabs cries out to the heavens in every area. Half of the Arab population is under the poverty line, and the government's policy toward them has made a significant contribution to worsening their depressed state. For 60 years, there has been talk of equality but, in fact, all the talk has been just empty slogans. The preferential treatment of Jews over Arabs can be seen and smelled everywhere.


                              http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...ation-1.220285




                              Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                              Kelt,

                              I saw the ones with another source. I will judge them for whatever value I think they have. Wiki is my last resort as a reference. A lot of stuff on it is not true. Sometimes Wiki is left alone because no one finds it......
                              Pruitt
                              Have you looked at the references listed in the Wiki text on Arab israelis ?

                              There are 247 references listed, almost all of them are actives and can be checked, I did check and they backup the excerpts I pasted from the Wiki document.


                              kelt
                              Last edited by kelt06; 03 Jul 10, 06:52. Reason: added reply to Pruitt

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I have to hand it to you, kelt, you're quite persevering in finding articles, posting, and answering in these threads. So too JCFalkenberg and the others.

                                It's just too bad some posts become personal, as I think an intellectual discussion has a lot of potential here towards an understanding of the actual situation over there.

                                Me, personally, I haven't really read up on these issues, just what I can read in the newspapers. There are several people here who seem to know a lot about this, from a historical perspective to the modern context, and I find myself learning a lot.

                                Anyway, I just hope you guys try to be more dispassionate in posting. The ME situation is hot enough as it is, let's not heat it up here, eh?


                                GMan
                                "We have no white flag."

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