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  • What Israelis Really Think Should Be Done About Gaza

    What Israelis Really Think Should Be Done About Gaza
    By KARL VICK / JERUSALEM Karl Vick / Jerusalem – Sat Jun 19, 1:15 am ET

    Until the flotilla fiasco, the blockade of Gaza was not a matter of great concern to the Israeli public. And Thursday's decision by Israel's government to loosen its grip on the flow of goods into the territory - vague on specifics and heavy on conspicuous intent - was aimed squarely at a world watching from beyond missile range. "Look, I come from a kibbutz that's very close to Gaza," says Ran, a 40-year-old in Tel Aviv. "I go there to visit, and it's not nice."

    The agricultural collective he comes from, called Nirim, grows organic peanuts and sweet potatoes in fields that run right up to the barrier that encloses 1.5 million Palestinians within Gaza. From the northern tip of the enclosure, an area of trash-strewn lots, militants scramble across to launch homemade rockets, then scramble off before Israeli artillery homes in on the launch coordinates. The rockets do not travel far, but they can reach Nirim. In March, shrapnel killed a Thai man working in a field there. (See how Israel has eased but not ended its Gaza blockade.)

    The problem, from Ran's perspective, is not that Israel's grip on Gaza is too tight. The problem is the opposite. "The country doesn't do enough," he says, then shrugs. "But you do what you can."

    In a small country united by, among other things, an abiding sense of vulnerability, the missile attacks are synonymous with "Gaza." And though they have grown less frequent since Israel invaded the coastal strip in December 2008, what remains foremost in the popular imagination are periods when they seemed incessant. Gallingly, rocket attacks surged after Israel pulled its settlers and soldiers out of the coastal strip five years ago. (See pictures of Israeli commandos storming Turkish ships.)

    Dahlia Scheindlin, a pollster and political consultant who works largely with the Israeli left, says that preoccupation with security, if not punishment, trumps concerns about hardship inside Gaza. "The pragmatic center, they don't see it," Scheindlin says, referring to the swing bloc that carries elections. "The narrative is, 'We left Gaza and got a rain of Qassam rockets. We gave them everything they wanted and we got a rain of Qassam rockets and a Hamas takeover.' I hear it over and over again in focus groups."

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2010061...08599199783200
    For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

  • #2
    The Jews have a survival instinct. The gaza situation is the Palestine situation. There will be a Jewish state with no Arabs, or there will be an Arab state with no Jews. The Arab street is ultimately accept nothing else. This is a smyrna situation; ethnic cleasing is the only solution and even that may not stop it. Not all people can live together...
    How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
    275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by JCFalkenbergIII View Post
      What Israelis Really Think Should Be Done About Gaza
      By KARL VICK / JERUSALEM Karl Vick / Jerusalem – Sat Jun 19, 1:15 am ET

      Until the flotilla fiasco, the blockade of Gaza was not a matter of great concern to the Israeli public. And Thursday's decision by Israel's government to loosen its grip on the flow of goods into the territory - vague on specifics and heavy on conspicuous intent - was aimed squarely at a world watching from beyond missile range. "Look, I come from a kibbutz that's very close to Gaza," says Ran, a 40-year-old in Tel Aviv. "I go there to visit, and it's not nice."

      The agricultural collective he comes from, called Nirim, grows organic peanuts and sweet potatoes in fields that run right up to the barrier that encloses 1.5 million Palestinians within Gaza. From the northern tip of the enclosure, an area of trash-strewn lots, militants scramble across to launch homemade rockets, then scramble off before Israeli artillery homes in on the launch coordinates. The rockets do not travel far, but they can reach Nirim. In March, shrapnel killed a Thai man working in a field there. (See how Israel has eased but not ended its Gaza blockade.)

      The problem, from Ran's perspective, is not that Israel's grip on Gaza is too tight. The problem is the opposite. "The country doesn't do enough," he says, then shrugs. "But you do what you can."

      In a small country united by, among other things, an abiding sense of vulnerability, the missile attacks are synonymous with "Gaza." And though they have grown less frequent since Israel invaded the coastal strip in December 2008, what remains foremost in the popular imagination are periods when they seemed incessant. Gallingly, rocket attacks surged after Israel pulled its settlers and soldiers out of the coastal strip five years ago. (See pictures of Israeli commandos storming Turkish ships.)

      Dahlia Scheindlin, a pollster and political consultant who works largely with the Israeli left, says that preoccupation with security, if not punishment, trumps concerns about hardship inside Gaza. "The pragmatic center, they don't see it," Scheindlin says, referring to the swing bloc that carries elections. "The narrative is, 'We left Gaza and got a rain of Qassam rockets. We gave them everything they wanted and we got a rain of Qassam rockets and a Hamas takeover.' I hear it over and over again in focus groups."

      http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2010061...08599199783200
      Not suprising.

      Comment


      • #4
        Excerpt of what Israelis think of the gaza blockade:

        TEL AVIV — In Israel, many are tempted to try and reduce the debate over the Gaza flotilla “incident” to one narrow question: Why didn't the Israeli Navy, with its professional experience, properly take into account a scenario of violent resistance by individuals on board the vessel being boarded? Unfortunately, this limited formulation entirely misses the essential question. The catastrophe on board the Marmara did not begin with the landing of the first Israeli soldier on deck but much, much earlier.

        So here is a brief attempt to summarize what has really brought Israel to this point. And, such an attempt must begin with the Gaza blockade.

        The blockade of Gaza is in fact the siege of an entire civilian population. True, the Hamas government in Gaza is a brutal, anti-democratic regime that violates human rights on a regular basis. It deprives [captured Israeli soldier] Gilad Shalit of his most essential basic rights and does not hesitate to attack innocent Israeli civilians. But the price for the crimes of the Hamas government is being exacted by Israel on a civilian population of 1.5 million people under siege, unable to leave Gaza, their lives kept just above the bar of a humanitarian crisis.

        Israel's siege represents a blatant violation of Gazan civilians' human rights. Around the world, it inspires rage against Israeli policy, engendering sympathy with the plight of Gazans. After the disengagement, most Israelis would probably prefer to forget the entire existence of Gaza, save for returning Gilad Shalit safely back home and preventing rocket fire on Israeli communities. But for these two issues, Gaza does not exist in the mind of the Israeli public and most Israelis feel no responsibility for the fate of its inhabitants.


        http://www.colorlines.com/article.php?ID=730

        kelt

        Comment


        • #5
          About ColorLines

          ColorLines has been the national newsmagazine on race and politics since 1998. We tell stories from communities of color while focusing on structural solutions that advance racial justice. For daily content on race and politics, visit our blog, RaceWire.org.
          What kelt is posting is an essay from a far left mag, pretending it is a news article from within Israel. Immediately below the headline:

          June 4, 2010

          A version of this essay originally appeared in the Israeli Webzine Nrg

          TEL AVIV — In Israel, many are tempted to try and reduce the debate over the Gaza flotilla “incident” to one narrow question:
          If you follow the link in the article to their single source, you go to a mag site in what appears to me to be Hebrew. I can't read it. Perhaps Golani could check it for us?
          "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
          — Groucho Marx

          Comment


          • #6
            From Haaretz, published on 03.06.2010

            Exit strategy: Lifting the Gaza blockadeInstead of insisting on continuing a failed policy , Netanyahu should pull himself together and instead of continuing a policy that has failed, Netanyahu should pull himself together and minimize the damage of the naval operation. He must appoint a commission of inquiry that will investigate what happened and lift the damaging and unnecessary blockade on the Gaza Strip, while developing a response to arms smuggling. Statesmanship is measured by the ability to distinguish between what is important and what is not. Netanyahu and Barak, who dragged Israel into a foolish struggle of prestige with Hamas and its supporters, erred by selecting a violent and damaging form of action. They failed in this week's test of statesmanship.

            http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...ckade-1.293883

            kelt
            Last edited by kelt06; 20 Jun 10, 09:42.

            Comment


            • #7
              What really is the point of bringing in opinion pieces from 3rd parties? Does that somehow validate the position or is it "white noise", meant to demoralize the opposition?

              I could just as easily copy and paste from Hot Air.
              "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
              — Groucho Marx

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Catman View Post
                What really is the point of bringing in opinion pieces from 3rd parties? Does that somehow validate the position or is it "white noise", meant to demoralize the opposition?

                I could just as easily copy and paste from Hot Air.
                Catman,

                first may i remind you that the title of this thread is "What Israelis Really Think Should Be Done About Gaza", hence the need to bring up Israeli's opinion!

                You have attempted to discredit the link i posted here, fair game.... but may I suggest you to divert some of your time on the forum to attempt to restore your own credibility first?


                http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...&postcount=119

                http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...&postcount=120


                kelt
                Last edited by kelt06; 20 Jun 10, 10:52.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I may not be a big Elton John fan or agree with much he says. But good for him!!!

                  Elton John aside, Israelis feel growing isolation

                  "Ain't gonna stop me from coming here, baby," he told the cheering crowd in Tel Aviv, saying he believed music should spread peace and bring people together: "That is what we do. We do not cherry-pick our consciences, OK?" he added, in an apparent swipe at the artists who have canceled concerts in Israel."


                  "I have always believed that music inhabits a world set apart from politics, religious differences or prejudice of any kind," he said in a statement before coming to Tel Aviv."

                  http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100618/...solated_israel
                  For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    kelt-

                    you're bringing in opinion pieces- fine. I just think you should post it as such. Of course the editorials you're posting are strictly from one viewpoint... yours.

                    Colorlines from what I can tell isn't even Israeli. It's American.

                    Anyone who questions my credibility is welcome to do so. I have my biases and opinions and am not ashamed to admit it.

                    I hope you realize I have no personal malice towards you. I am opposed however to the viewpoint that you enjoy presenting.

                    As far as the nature of this thread, posting editorial commentary is no more valid than that of our own members who are citizens of that country, that you find equally disagreeable.
                    "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
                    — Groucho Marx

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Catman View Post
                      If you follow the link in the article to their single source, you go to a mag site in what appears to me to be Hebrew. I can't read it. Perhaps Golani could check it for us?
                      I saw two links.
                      First is for NRG in which a similar article appears under the "opinions" zone.
                      The Author is named Hagi Elad and a wiki search on him reviles that he has had 2 main public fields so far.
                      1st is the Gay community in Israel in which he was active in many different positions including organizing the first "proud-parade" organized in Jerusalem.

                      2nd is the field of civil rights in which he is active as the head of the civil rights association since 2008.

                      The other link is to the Association of civil rights in Israel (which like I mentioned is ran by Hagi Elad) I got the English version in the link though, it's available in Hebrew and Arabic too.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        "Public polls showing support for the government's handling of the flotilla affair and the rejection of its critics highlights the gap between how the Israeli society views itself and how the rest of the world does. Israelis overwhelmingly see the naval blockade of Gaza, aimed at keeping weapons from reaching the territory's Hamas militant rulers, as justified. To most, the flotilla was a violent provocation that endangered the lives of soldiers sent to stop the Gaza-bound boats."

                        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100618/...solated_israel
                        For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          What Israelis think of the Gaza Ghetto

                          A survey carried out in 2008 and commissioned by the human rights group Gisha gives an interesting view on How the israelis see the transformation of the Gaza strip into a Ghetto:

                          Out of 600 Jewish Israeli respondants:
                          -79% agreed that the blockade primarly harms civilians.
                          -60% worried that the blockade would increase Islamic extremism.
                          -67% are concerned the blockade hurts israel image internationally.
                          -78% predicted that the blockade would not bring down the Hamas.
                          -63% rejected easing the blockade.


                          So according to these numbers, Israeli Jews believe that the blockade primarily hurts civilians, increases extremism, won’t hurt Hamas and damages Israel’s reputation abroad, but they still support it. If there’s another explanation than obstinate cruelty, I’d like to hear it.


                          http://humanprovince.wordpress.com/2...gaza-blockade/


                          kelt

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don't think it shows obstinate cruelty: I think it shows that they (in general) don't see any way out of the current dilemma, in part because they feel that they don't understand the thinking processes of the people in Gaza. I am sympathetic to the conditions of the bulk of the population in Gaza myself; on the other hand, I can't understand and could not understand all the suicide bombers, especially with the children and women. If I was in Israel uppermost in my mind would be: How come Egypt had the border closed for so long, how come THEY didn't want to help their brothers and sisters?

                            Another way of looking at: Think in terms of the British blockade of the Germans in World War I.

                            1. Would the British say it primarily harmed civilians in Germany? Yes - but they were at war.

                            2. Would the blockade have increased or decreased support for the German command? I don't know what they would have said - after all, in WW II they thought that bombing civilians would hurt morale, but apparently it stiffened resistance. I gave the Israelis credit - I think they know it will increase extremism. But in their view I think extremism is going to increase even if they don't follow this policy.

                            3. I think the British understood the blockade hurt their image internationally, but still felt it was in their best interest in the titanic struggle they were in.

                            4. The Israelis I don't think view it as an attempt to bring down Hamas. They view it as a tactic in a comples struggle. I don't think the British thought the blockade would cause Germany to surrender - Germany would still have to be defeated on the battlefield, or maybe ask the US to mediate a peace (pre 1917)

                            5. 63% of Israelis reject easing the blockade - from a tactical or strategic standpoint, to further the Israeli position, what do you think is a better strategy?
                            Last edited by lakechampainer; 21 Jun 10, 06:27.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lakechampainer View Post
                              How come Egypt had the border closed for so long, how come THEY didn't want to help their brothers and sisters?
                              I have brought this up many times and even started thread asking basically the same question. None of those who oppose the Israeli side of the Gazan border try to address it.
                              http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=93842

                              I think that this really says alot though about the views of the Israelis. "Israelis overwhelmingly see the naval blockade of Gaza, aimed at keeping weapons from reaching the territory's Hamas militant rulers, as justified".

                              Robert
                              For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

                              Comment

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