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  • New World Order

    Recently it was released to the public that a Syrian intelligence officer named: Yasser Muhammad Saabag, a middle man between Syrian and Iranian Intel in the Balkans and a high ranking Hamas fund raiser named Amin Abu-Rashid were both on board the Peace ship- "Mavi Marmara".

    For an unclear reason both were released even though they are of great value on many levels, firstly to explain what militant foreign agents were doing aboard a peace vessel, secondly for obvious intelligence purposes and last but not least to serve as leverage to release the Gazan held Israeli soldier Gilad Shailt who was kidnapped in '06 and his situation is currently unknown.

    Further more Rajip Erdogan (who I believe is entitled for a Nobel peace prize) announced that Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah's secretary-general, will be his personal guest of honor at a coming conference (most probably a peace related one) in Ankara.

    In the meanwhile Israel is not prompt at all to take preventing actions, not even re-evaluating the various security related contracts signed with Turkey .
    Voices are starting to rise to finally recognize the Armenian genocide of 1915-1918 which Israel wasn't "able" to do so far because of it's diplomatically and relatively good ties with Turkey, no official reference was made so far.

    Turkey has solemnly announced it has switched sides and is now the newest member in the "Axis of Evil" almost-nuclear team, Israel who was for many years proudly announced to be the one place where Jews are pro-active and don't suffer from "Diaspora mentality" is slow to adapt to the new situation, it believes that if we'll just wait and lay-low the strong currents will disappear and everything will be back to normal.

    It is also afraid to take actions on the count of world opinion, which was never favoring for her.

    Striking Iran nuclear program will sentence Israel as the aggressor, disconnecting the already non-existing ties with Turkey will judge Israel as the guilty at the situations' deterioration, nothing we can do will be right but if we don't do anything we'll be dead in a matter of years.

    As I see it Israel has 2 main strategic options:

    1. Take a stand, be pro-active, work towards our own interests and goals, for our survival, without sanctifying an exalted "diplomacy" which doesn't exist, The UN is not neutral nor is it truth seeking, it has taken a stand and it is against Israel, the same is true for the EU.

    Israel was always the "naughty boy", the only true times we were respected and not looked down at was when we were daring and right, in Entebbe, in Osirak, in the Six Days War.

    2. Sit and wait when our enemies gain political, diplomatic and military might and draw their planes for our annihilation, thinking that time will heal the wounds, that the international community actually cares enough to try and stop them, that anyone will shed a tear.

    Wait, like our ancestors waited for the world to save them when Hitler rose to power, when they were revoked of any human being's rights, when they were put in ghettos and camps, when they were stuffed onto boxcars, when they went through "selection" when they were locked in the gas chambers.

    Wait, to no avail.

    Israel must be pro-active, daring and creative or it will not last, history teaches us exactly that.

    [/Rant]

  • #2
    Originally posted by Golani View Post
    Recently it was released to the public that a Syrian intelligence officer named: Yasser Muhammad Saabag, a middle man between Syrian and Iranian Intel in the Balkans and a high ranking Hamas fund raiser named Amin Abu-Rashid were both on board the Peace ship- "Mavi Marmara".

    For an unclear reason both were released even though they are of great value on many levels, firstly to explain what militant foreign agents were doing aboard a peace vessel, secondly for obvious intelligence purposes and last but not least to serve as leverage to release the Gazan held Israeli soldier Gilad Shailt who was kidnapped in '06 and his situation is currently unknown.

    Further more Rajip Erdogan (who I believe is entitled for a Nobel peace prize) announced that Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah's secretary-general, will be his personal guest of honor at a coming conference (most probably a peace related one) in Ankara.

    In the meanwhile Israel is not prompt at all to take preventing actions, not even re-evaluating the various security related contracts signed with Turkey .
    Voices are starting to rise to finally recognize the Armenian genocide of 1915-1918 which Israel wasn't "able" to do so far because of it's diplomatically and relatively good ties with Turkey, no official reference was made so far.

    Turkey has solemnly announced it has switched sides and is now the newest member in the "Axis of Evil" almost-nuclear team, Israel who was for many years proudly announced to be the one place where Jews are pro-active and don't suffer from "Diaspora mentality" is slow to adapt to the new situation, it believes that if we'll just wait and lay-low the strong currents will disappear and everything will be back to normal.

    It is also afraid to take actions on the count of world opinion, which was never favoring for her.

    Striking Iran nuclear program will sentence Israel as the aggressor, disconnecting the already non-existing ties with Turkey will judge Israel as the guilty at the situations' deterioration, nothing we can do will be right but if we don't do anything we'll be dead in a matter of years.

    As I see it Israel has 2 main strategic options:

    1. Take a stand, be pro-active, work towards our own interests and goals, for our survival, without sanctifying an exalted "diplomacy" which doesn't exist, The UN is not neutral nor is it truth seeking, it has taken a stand and it is against Israel, the same is true for the EU.

    Israel was always the "naughty boy", the only true times we were respected and not looked down at was when we were daring and right, in Entebbe, in Osirak, in the Six Days War.

    2. Sit and wait when our enemies gain political, diplomatic and military might and draw their planes for our annihilation, thinking that time will heal the wounds, that the international community actually cares enough to try and stop them, that anyone will shed a tear.

    Wait, like our ancestors waited for the world to save them when Hitler rose to power, when they were revoked of any human being's rights, when they were put in ghettos and camps, when they were stuffed onto boxcars, when they went through "selection" when they were locked in the gas chambers.

    Wait, to no avail.

    Israel must be pro-active, daring and creative or it will not last, history teaches us exactly that.

    [/Rant]
    I'd have been amazed if the Syrians or the Iranians amongst others hadnt been involved in this. They knew your security forces would intercept these ships and I'd be amazed if it wasnt all part of the plan to get your security services to shoot "innocent civilians" for the consumption of the worlds media. My point is why is Israel playing these peoples games and giving them exactly what they want.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
      My point is why is Israel playing these peoples games and giving them exactly what they want.
      Too true.

      That's why Israel needs to start acting and stop reacting.

      The whole Israeli Doctrine since 1948 was to take the fight away from our territory and onto our enemies' as quickly as possible, we seem to have forgotten that.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
        I'd have been amazed if the Syrians or the Iranians amongst others hadnt been involved in this. They knew your security forces would intercept these ships and I'd be amazed if it wasnt all part of the plan to get your security services to shoot "innocent civilians" for the consumption of the worlds media. My point is why is Israel playing these peoples games and giving them exactly what they want.
        You are echoing what I have been saying all along Cope; whereas the loss of nine lives is regrettable, what the were those people thinking? Did they actually believe that they could assault military personnel with pipes and knives and that these military personnel were simply going to allow themselves to get their butts handed to them? Obviously those "peace activists" are not familiar with Ghandi or Martin Luther King. Likewise, I have already pointed out how the Turks have no room to be pointing fingers as the post Ottoman regime in Turkey has been one of most flagrant perpetrators of genocide in recent memory, not just against Armenians, but against ethnic Greeks and Assyrians as well; to say the least the the Turks have a lot of chutzpah!
        Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

        Initiated Chief Petty Officer
        Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!

        Comment


        • #5
          As I see it Israel has 2 main strategic options.
          Yes, two options: sit down and shut up.

          The wind-down to the war in Iraq should allow the opportunity to use surplus US troops for pacification in Palestine. By turning military jurisdiction in Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Lebanon over to the US Army, it should be possible to go forward unilaterally with the 2-state solution within the framework of an open alliance with the United States. As the US military does its stuff, the Palestinians will start to break out of their radical thinking patterns.

          Overall, the impression over here is growing that Israel’s problems, and apparentl lack of any real solutions to them, could drag us into a big war in the future. Other than American GI Joe types, this is viewed as a bad thing. If a real internationally tense situation evolves as the world balance of power continues to change, it might become within our interests to cram a two-state solution down the throats of both sides so that the Isreaeli-Palestine problem doesn't become the new Sarajevo Crisis.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Glenn239 View Post
            Yes, two options: sit down and shut up.

            The wind-down to the war in Iraq should allow the opportunity to use surplus US troops for pacification in Palestine. By turning military jurisdiction in Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Lebanon over to the US Army, it should be possible to go forward unilaterally with the 2-state solution within the framework of an open alliance with the United States. As the US military does its stuff, the Palestinians will start to break out of their radical thinking patterns.

            Overall, the impression over here is growing that Israel’s problems, and apparentl lack of any real solutions to them, could drag us into a big war in the future. Other than American GI Joe types, this is viewed as a bad thing. If a real internationally tense situation evolves as the world balance of power continues to change, it might become within our interests to cram a two-state solution down the throats of both sides so that the Isreaeli-Palestine problem doesn't become the new Sarajevo Crisis.
            Thank you,

            This post is great in proving my above points.

            Comment


            • #7
              This post is great in proving my above points.
              It looked more like venting frustration at deeply entrenched problems to me. “Points”? Go figure.

              Thank you.
              You’re quite welcome. Your proscribed, “pro-active and daring” policy is actually intended to to force us into give Israel a more-or-less blank check to regional policy without Israel giving up anything with respect to our security in the region. It is not within our interests.

              Do not confuse hardline opinions prevalent on internet sites with what real mainstream opinion is like over here. More and more the concern is that Israel’s problems are bigger than Israel can handle and that Israel wants to drag us into a war - because neither Palestine nor Israel has any intention of reaching a mutually acceptable accord. The Palestinians want to take what is yours under the guise of a homeland and you want to keep what is theirs under the façade of a threat to your security.

              I wonder, since neither Israel nor Palestine can reach a solution, that perhaps the world might want to think about coming in and imposing one. That would mean security for Israelis from rocket and other threats, but also that you will get out of East Jerusalem. Unilateral Israeli attacks to stir regional unrest will reinforce the impression gaining ground here that Israel’s policies are also contrary to our interests.

              But that’s just my opinion. With respect to Iran, the USAF will take the shot if one is to be made, not the second string like Pakistan, Canada or the IAF. If you want to start a war with Iran with a pinprick bombing attack, then what you might really be looking to do is start regional war between us and Iran.

              I don’t think that’s at all a good idea.

              Comment


              • #8
                As the world gets ever closer to global oil demand matching or exceeding global oil production so the time is coming when the Gulf Arab oil producing states will have enormous global power. Time for any sort of action is short.
                I think the only real solution is a 2010 Israel/palestine version of the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey, fully compensated and with minor West Bank border redrawing as an added sweetener.
                Muslim Israeli Arabs to be transmigrated from Israel into Gaza and the West Bank. Gaza and the West Bank then to be internationally recognised as mini UN supported Bantuistans.
                The Islamic dream is to out breed and swamp. Once that option is gone then only the black and white of open war or cease hostilities are left. Open war is no option, a growing Islamic fifth column no longer an option, teeth grinding cease fire might be the only thing left on the table. A touch of 'madman theory' might also be in the air.
                If history shows anything, Arab muslims/Khaibar Jews, India/Pakistan, Greece/Turkey, Indonesia/East Timor. The onlyway to stabilise is to physically seperate the clashing ideologies.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Glenn239 View Post
                  It looked more like venting frustration at deeply entrenched problems to me. “Points”? Go figure.



                  You’re quite welcome. Your proscribed, “pro-active and daring” policy is actually intended to to force us into give Israel a more-or-less blank check to regional policy without Israel giving up anything with respect to our security in the region. It is not within our interests.

                  Do not confuse hardline opinions prevalent on internet sites with what real mainstream opinion is like over here. More and more the concern is that Israel’s problems are bigger than Israel can handle and that Israel wants to drag us into a war - because neither Palestine nor Israel has any intention of reaching a mutually acceptable accord. The Palestinians want to take what is yours under the guise of a homeland and you want to keep what is theirs under the façade of a threat to your security.

                  I wonder, since neither Israel nor Palestine can reach a solution, that perhaps the world might want to think about coming in and imposing one. That would mean security for Israelis from rocket and other threats, but also that you will get out of East Jerusalem. Unilateral Israeli attacks to stir regional unrest will reinforce the impression gaining ground here that Israel’s policies are also contrary to our interests.

                  But that’s just my opinion. With respect to Iran, the USAF will take the shot if one is to be made, not the second string like Pakistan, Canada or the IAF. If you want to start a war with Iran with a pinprick bombing attack, then what you might really be looking to do is start regional war between us and Iran.

                  I don’t think that’s at all a good idea.
                  Yes I agree here, Israel should tread lightly because their actions could bring the US in the war and esculate a little crisis into something world war like.

                  I don't think Israel should play "Austira-Hungary" hard ball with little old Palestine "Serbia" because it may provoke big brother Iran "Russia" into war and the USA "Germany" will have no choice but come to Israel's defense. I think Israel should be more diplomatic, and not provoke any world wars right now, because I think Iran "Russia" is just looking for an excuse too.

                  Because the more Israel does, the more it isolates itself from the world (Turkey). If they want to survive then they need to think before they act, not act before they think.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Generally Israel should not want to force the US to make a choice between Israel and Turkey. If the US then choses Israel, they can effectively kiss all other strategic interests in the region goodbye. Israel might be fine with this. Iran positively hankers for it. But it is not what Turkey wants, and likely neither the US. Iran wants the US out of the Mid East. Turkey wants it in. The US effectively protecting its interests, and those of its allies, ASIDE from Israel (which is more or less at loggerheads with all other US allies in the region), becomes a lot easier without having to cater to Israel.

                    Possibly we might yet get to see the US and Turkey wrestle Israel to the floor, friendly like, and make it engage in certain activities it might rather not have to — like an at least half-serious attempt at that two-state solution Israel is holding out for (since whatever one-state solution might come about, it's worse for Israel) — for the good of everyone else involved. Except the Iranian government of course.

                    The perspectives on Israel-Palestine are generally so warped, it's sometimes obscured from view what a ridiculously small nation Israel is, and the Palestinians even more insignificant.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Huh???

                      "The wind-down to the war in Iraq should allow the opportunity to use surplus US troops for pacification in Palestine. By turning military jurisdiction in Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Lebanon over to the US Army, it should be possible to go forward unilaterally with the 2-state solution within the framework of an open alliance with the United States. As the US military does its stuff, the Palestinians will start to break out of their radical thinking patterns."

                      You're joking right? Even Obama isn't that stupid (OK, I should be careful saying things like that). To put the US military in the middle like you suggested would be insane! You think our current Joint Chiefs type don't want to attack Iran; they be about a thousand times more likely to favor that over what you said.

                      There's no need to choose between Turkey and Israel. Anyone with half a brain (that admittedly leaves out most of our State Dept.) can see that Turkey has already made their choice. Ataturk's creation of a modern, secular, Islamic country is DEAD! Too bad, but that's reality. The sooner the US and Israel accept this, the better off we will be.Turkey is now firmly in the enemy camp. As is Syria and Lebanon. There were chances to change that recently (Lebanon anyway), but they are gone, kaput.

                      The next year or two are going to be something. Something for history. But something bad!
                      Save America!! Impeach Obama!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yes I agree here, Israel should tread lightly because their actions could bring the US in the war and esculate a little crisis into something world war like.
                        This is the crucial element. The international system is bigger than the problems of one little 7-million person state, and avoiding new Sarajevos will be crucial to the US and China avoiding WW3 this century. If Israel starts acting unilaterally, in a way designed to bring us into unending conflict with major international powers, then more and more Israel will be viewed as the problem. OTOH, If Israel adapts a collective approach, acting in unison with Europe and the US and never going mad dog, demonstrating above all else that it is a stable and trustworthy partner, Israel will be viewed as the solution.

                        Golani’s path will compromise Israel’s reputation with the countries that are sympathetic to Israel, reinforce the opinion of those that are hostile, and therefore represents an option far too dangerous for Israel to contemplate. It is precisely what the Iranians hope Israel will do.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There's no need to choose between Turkey and Israel. Anyone with half a brain (that admittedly leaves out most of our State Dept.) can see that Turkey has already made their choice.
                          Ah, the humour in such wishful thinking!

                          You're joking right? Even Obama isn't that stupid (OK, I should be careful saying things like that). To put the US military in the middle like you suggested would be insane!
                          Only by directly taking on the task to bring security into Palestine can the US strip the Israelis of their pretext (“security”) to unilateral military action and eventually create in Lebanon and Gaza a middle class with a stake in a new status quo. The Palestinians and Israelis themselves have shown time and time again they cannot and will not make this deal on their own. Perhaps we should cram one down both their throats.

                          Golani’s thinks the UN and EU are now the enemy of Israel. I’m hoping this opinion has no widespread base in Israel. Because if it does then Tel Aviv is rapidly moving out of step with mainstream western thinking; one would have to be half mad to suppose the burden of supporting unpredictable Israel actions against half the Islamic world is within US interests. The US just isn’t that strong anymore.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Generally Israel should not want to force the US to make a choice between Israel and Turkey.
                            Israel wants the US to choose Israel because Israel can then do whatever it wants to who it wants, and the US will run around cleaning up the mess. That makes perfect sense unless one values more the interests of the United States and the security of its men and women serving in the Middle East. Israel wants to bomb Iran and start a war between Iran and the west. That makes sense too – if we are at war with Iran than Israel has its military allies without having given up anything in return to the process. Smart for Israel. Not so smart for us.

                            Golani is very much barking up the wrong tree if he thinks mainstream Canada is stupid enough to believe the IAF unilaterally bombing Iran is in Canada’s interests. Iran borders A-stan and can arm the Taliban to the teeth.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Glenn239 View Post
                              The wind-down to the war in Iraq should allow the opportunity to use surplus US troops for pacification in Palestine. By turning military jurisdiction in Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Lebanon over to the US Army, it should be possible to go forward unilaterally with the 2-state solution within the framework of an open alliance with the United States. As the US military does its stuff, the Palestinians will start to break out of their radical thinking patterns.

                              Maybe you should volunteer your own nations troops for such an impossible task.
                              ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

                              BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

                              BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

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