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  • Why Israel? Seriously?

    Ok, so you all know the story. The British with Allenby, T.E. Lawrance, and the rebel Arabs push the Turks up the Gaza and take Israel, Syria, Lebannon, and Jordan for themselves.

    The Zionist move in and start preaching for a homeland for the Jews, then the Holocaust happens and fuels this fire. The western powers agree and put the state of Israel right where one of the most holiest cities, to three of the worlds great religions, Jerusalem smack dab in the middle of Islamic territory and used the name Israel.

    Why, why, why?!!!!!! What were they thinking? Did they really need their "own country?" Why there? Their just asking for trouble. Because their religious text says it is the Chosen Land? Seriously, this is what causes war. What gives them the right to move there, why didn't they just put it in the smack dab middle of the United States, were the ones who enforced Israel. Put it in Kansas or Wyoming.

    I feel sorry for them about the Holocaust and all, but come on. This is the best solution for this? Why does my USA support this illogical idea. Just because their god told them this land is for them. They haven't held it for thousands of years. When the Canaanites moved in, they killed off the tribes that were living there before them, so I don't get it. The Canaanites don't belong their either. Seriously? Most religious American's probably don't know the history of things, but just feel sorry for the Jews about the Holocaust. But the Jews aren't the only ones who get killed for their religion. The Thirty Years War, Bosnia conflict, the Crusades, the 7th century Muslim expansion, just to name a few.

    For responses please put your religious bias aside, regardless of what your preacher says lol.

  • #2
    Why Israel? Seriously?

    Ok, so you all know the story. The British with Allenby, T.E. Lawrance, and the rebel Arabs push the Turks up the Gaza and take Israel, Syria, Lebannon, and Jordan for themselves.

    The Zionist move in and start preaching for a homeland for the Jews, then the Holocaust happens and fuels this fire. The western powers agree and put the state of Israel right where one of the most holiest cities, to three of the worlds great religions, Jerusalem smack dab in the middle of Islamic territory and used the name Israel.

    Why, why, why?!!!!!! What were they thinking? Did they really need their "own country?" Why there? Their just asking for trouble. Because their religious text says it is the Chosen Land? Seriously, this is what causes war. What gives them the right to move there, why didn't they just put it in the smack dab middle of the United States, were the ones who enforced Israel. Put it in Kansas or Wyoming.

    I feel sorry for them about the Holocaust and all, but come on. This is the best solution for this? Why does my USA support this illogical idea. Just because their god told them this land is for them. They haven't held it for thousands of years. When the Canaanites moved in, they killed off the tribes that were living there before them, so I don't get it. The Canaanites don't belong their either. Seriously? Most religious American's probably don't know the history of things, but just feel sorry for the Jews about the Holocaust. But the Jews aren't the only ones who get killed for their religion. The Thirty Years War, Bosnia conflict, the Crusades, the 7th century Muslim expansion, just to name a few.

    For responses please put your religious bias aside, regardless of what your preacher says lol.

    Comment


    • #3
      Well, pditty, there was collaboration between the Zionists and Nazis, for the Zionist jewish-ruled state to be imposed upon the territory of Palestine. But it wasn't until the aftermath of World War II that all those eastern European jews forced their way into Palestine. Now bear in mind, for most of them, Palestine was not their first choice. But ask your grandparents and great grandparents about anti-Semitism prevalent in the United States at the time, and if they're honest with you, they'll tell you that there was no way they wanted all those jews in the US of A. So they went to Palestine. And President Truman, realizing that his political future needed help wherever it could be found, appeased America's jewish constituency by rushing to recognize the state of Israel. The result has been numerous wars, forced expulsions at gunpoint of people from their homes, people made destitute and forced to live in refugee camps for generations, apartheid conditions, massacres in Lebanon, assassination, terrorism from all sides, 9/11, America's need for a GWOT, inhumane sieges... the list goes on and on.

      From the point of view of the resistance, they can't figure out why the Palestinian people have to be the ultimate victims of Europe's holocaust and expulsion of its jewish citizens. (They also can't figure out why putting the holocaust through academic scrutiny is a felony crime punishable by prison in parts of Europe.) Certain leaders of the resistance have stated that as the holocaust was a crime committed by Europeans, why couldn't they been afforded a place to live in Europe or even Alaska or where ever-but why did the Palestinians have to shoulder the results of this crime? They had nothing to do with it.

      The situation is now made ever so worse by the fact that pro-Zionist elements have so thoroughly infiltrated the American political establishment and US corporate run media, that the imposition of this injustice has gained a life of its own.

      But it won't last. Geopolitics and Palestinian population trends will ultimately catch up with this injustice. It will probably take place in 50 to 75 years. In the meantime, we're unfortunately sucked into this ongoing injustice and very expensive conflict for the duration.

      Comment


      • #4
        It would all be a moot point if the Arab god didn't demand the blood of the Israelis. The jew would be quite happy to live in peace.

        You can't take religion out of only one side of this argument.
        "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
        — Groucho Marx

        Comment


        • #5
          Well PD, you need to brush up on your history.

          For once, the Zionist movement was established in 1897.

          Jerusalem one of the most holiest cities?
          It is now, because Israel governance enables free religion practice, do you think it was ever like this during the Muslim rein?
          Do you think the Muslims ever paid this much attention to Jerusalem before the establishment of Israel?

          I suggest reading Mark Twains' "Pleasure Excursion to the Holy Land" for an objective, priceless view of what the land was before Israel came about, a wasteland.

          As far as being smack down the middle of the Muslim nations, causing wars and all those things, the future land of Israel had different possibilities- Kenya, Uganda, Alaska, Caucasusת, east Russia to name a few...

          It was ultimately chosen on the bases of many different things, the Zionist movement desire and the British Empire promise being the top reasons.

          But don't be mistaken, the Jews always have been and always will be smack down the middle of someone and were always blamed for all the morbidity and wars of the world.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Golani View Post
            But don't be mistaken, the Jews always have been and always will be smack down the middle of someone
            One of the most accurate things I have read here, and also one of the most depressing. I don't think it would matter where the Jewish state was placed as there was always going to be somebody that wouldn't be happy with it, and would try to destroy it.
            Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

            That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

            Comment


            • #7
              there was collaboration between the Zionists and Nazis, for the Zionist jewish-ruled state to be imposed upon the territory of Palestine.
              The trains were not going to the Promised Land. Also, was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem meeting with Hitler to help bring the jews there, or what?
              Last edited by Catman; 19 May 10, 12:07.
              "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
              — Groucho Marx

              Comment


              • #8
                The U.S. had an arms embargo on Israel when it was first born, significant cooperation didn't begin until the Pan-Arabist alliance with the Soviets turned Israel into a Cold War ally. "Putting it in Wyoming" wasn't an option. It's not like Truman decided "oh I will now create a nation!" and did so in the middle of British territory. That's not how the 1948 War went in the least. The U.S. supported Israel due to the Cold War and continues today for its own strategic interests. Keep in mind the U.S. supports every nation in the Middle East sans Syria and Iran.

                Not supporting Israel won't change the unstable situation of the Middle East. To suggest that the cause of all the problems in that region are a few Jews is naivety and absurdity. The worst wars in the region didn't even involve Israel. Moreover Israel will not go away, so the world must learn to live with it. The creation of Israel was not a unique event in history. Post-War there were a vast multitude of independence movements and border disputes that caused instability, instability that often (and indeed, usually) resulted in wars far worse then anything Israel has brought. Saying Israel needs to be destroyed or "put in Wyoming" today is like demanding Poland and Russia change their borders and displace their own people to rectify what happened to East Prussia. It would be global anarchy if the standards applied to Israel were applied to the rest of the world.

                The only thing I ponder "Why Israel?" with is why people get so worked up over it. In the greater global context it is a minor dispute both in terms of scale and especially in terms of brutality. And yet, it gets so much global attention and is the primary cause of heated debates on this forum and others. If the situation in Darfur (with the backing of certain American Arab allies) happened in the West Bank or Gaza I can't even imagine the response.
                Last edited by Megaharrison; 19 May 10, 12:24.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by pditty8811 View Post
                  Ok, so you all know the story. The British with Allenby, T.E. Lawrance, and the rebel Arabs push the Turks up the Gaza and take Israel, Syria, Lebannon, and Jordan for themselves.

                  The Zionist move in and start preaching for a homeland for the Jews, then the Holocaust happens and fuels this fire. The western powers agree and put the state of Israel right where one of the most holiest cities, to three of the worlds great religions, Jerusalem smack dab in the middle of Islamic territory and used the name Israel.

                  Why, why, why?!!!!!! What were they thinking? Did they really need their "own country?" Why there? Their just asking for trouble. Because their religious text says it is the Chosen Land? Seriously, this is what causes war. What gives them the right to move there, why didn't they just put it in the smack dab middle of the United States, were the ones who enforced Israel. Put it in Kansas or Wyoming.

                  I feel sorry for them about the Holocaust and all, but come on. This is the best solution for this? Why does my USA support this illogical idea. Just because their god told them this land is for them. They haven't held it for thousands of years. When the Canaanites moved in, they killed off the tribes that were living there before them, so I don't get it. The Canaanites don't belong their either. Seriously? Most religious American's probably don't know the history of things, but just feel sorry for the Jews about the Holocaust. But the Jews aren't the only ones who get killed for their religion. The Thirty Years War, Bosnia conflict, the Crusades, the 7th century Muslim expansion, just to name a few.

                  For responses please put your religious bias aside, regardless of what your preacher says lol.
                  I'm sure this will, sooner or later, become a heated discussion but I'll add my two cents before it does:

                  The zionists handed the British a fait accompli. The British ultimatley washed their hands of it after the Jews and Arabs began fighting. The entire history is a confusing mess not least because there was never an Arab state of Palestine and Jews had lived in the area since ancient times (though, of course, their numbers were growing through immigration from Europe especially after WWII).

                  Israel's borders were largely defined by the wars, not by any formal agreement. Israel won and so it exists. The Arabs chose to go to war and lost so they didn't get a state.

                  The zionist Jews chose to move into hostile territory, that's their choice and they live with the consequences of that choice. The Arabs chose to go to war to prevent this and they too live with the consequences of that choice.

                  The moral question is: at what point did the zionist Jews do wrong?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Actually, although early Jewish Zionists lived in the "Palestine Mandate" zone, it was more the external pressure from Britain and the UN that ultimately allowed the creation of the state of Israel. This was over a period of many decades before 1948, the year the UN left the Palestine to be a 2 state affair. Yes, the Zionists had pushed since the late 1800s for a Jewish state but that was a relatively small religious movement. The reality is that the widespread anti-Semitism of Europe encouraged the Zionist movement. And after the Holocaust, no one really wanted to be equated to the Nazis and restrict them. And remember, before WW2 virtually every nation in Europe had anti-Semitic laws or Soviet style pogroms so it's hardly surprising that they would want to live somewhere more amenable to their religion. That's why the Israelis are so hardcore; they lived the oppressed life pretty much everywhere across the globe so they know Israel is the only place where they can go "home". They'll defend that place to the death because they know they're not going to get much better anywhere else, even in the US.

                    Hey, Ipser beat me to it!!!

                    As for where the Zionists went wrong, that's a good question. But live by sword, die by the sword. Personally, I think that by allowing the Orthodox Jewish to live and operate separately and not require them to aid in defending the country and have their own schools, it set a precedent which created the wrong kind of mentality, the Israel for Jewish Israel only mentality. Balanced against the socialist government policies of the early years, you get a really schizophrenic view of how Israel will work in the future. But that's just my not entirely educated outside of Israel view; maybe I'm totally wrong.
                    Last edited by boomer400; 19 May 10, 13:08.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think it's not holocaust the main problem, but centuries of pain, exiles, violences, prevarications suffered by jews all around the world. Suddenly they understand they can get a safe haven (with a lot of money from richest european jews) in what their God indicated as their home. And you can blame them? I'm really sorry about palestinians's sufferings but I can't blame zionists to have created Eretz Israel.
                      A ME LE GUARDIE
                      "Di noi treṃ la nostra vecchia gloria. Tre secoli di fede e una vittoria". Gabriele D'Annunzio

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by boomer400 View Post
                        As for where the Zionists went wrong, that's a good question. But live by sword, die by the sword. Personally, I think that by allowing the Orthodox Jewish to live and operate separately and not require them to aid in defending the country and have their own schools, it set a precedent which created the wrong kind of mentality, the Israel for Jewish Israel only mentality. Balanced against the socialist government policies of the early years, you get a really schizophrenic view of how Israel will work in the future. But that's just my not entirely educated outside of Israel view; maybe I'm totally wrong.
                        Israel has a lot of internal problems to work out, to be sure. Not that others don't but theirs are more immediatly existential. To paraphrase Ben Franklin, they won their country and now they have to keep it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Granatiere View Post
                          And you can blame them? I'm really sorry about palestinians's sufferings but I can't blame zionists to have created Eretz Israel.
                          I agree.

                          The fact that the Nation State is a more modern concept doesn't change the fact that the Jews are no different than other peoples who have tried to form nation states in the past two hundred years.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Is it me, or does it seem like the British were responsible for half of the world's problems for the last 200 years...?
                            Surrender? NutZ!
                            -Varro

                            Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys; look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death. -Sun Tzu

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Granatiere View Post
                              I think it's not holocaust the main problem, but centuries of pain, exiles, violences, prevarications suffered by jews all around the world. Suddenly they understand they can get a safe haven (with a lot of money from richest european jews) in what their God indicated as their home. And you can blame them? I'm really sorry about palestinians's sufferings but I can't blame zionists to have created Eretz Israel.
                              Not only the Jews have been treated badly throughout the ages. Unlike most religions the Jews want to be a state within a state. They want to govern themselves even in a host country, that's their choice. The Romans didn't stand for it and the Jews fought it out in Masada. In the past they've chosen not to cooperate with their host nations because there god tells them so, and no state-nation in the right mind will stand for it. It would be a threat to any nation's security, like Spartacus or Jesus. So why does my American tax dollars have to pay for this state in the middle of a Muslim hornets nest? And it happens to include Jerusalem!
                              Last edited by pditty8811; 19 May 10, 15:47.

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