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  • Quran supports right of Israel to exist

    I have a question for those who are Islamic: since the verses below support the right of the Nation of Israel to exist, aren't you defying Allah by trying to destroy it?


    Qur'an Sura 5:21-23
    [5:21] "O my people, enter the holy land that GOD has decreed for you, and do not rebel, lest you become losers."

    [5:22] They said, "O Moses, there are powerful people in it, and we will not enter it, unless they get out of it. If they get out, we are entering."

    [5:23] Two men who were reverent and blessed by GOD said, "Just enter the gate. If you just enter it, you will surely prevail. You must trust in GOD, if you are believers."


    Qur'an Sutra 17:104
    17:104] And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, "Go live into this land. When the final prophecy comes to pass, we will summon you all in one group."

  • #2
    The quran is just a lump of clay to be molded into whatever shape suits it's current user the best.
    ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

    BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

    BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

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    • #3
      Again we must consider abrogation. All early Meccan verses are superceded by the Medina verses, especially Sura 9. And in the hadiths, special wrath is poured out on Jews, namely the Jews and Muslims will fight and the Muslims will exterminate the Jew with the help of talking rocks and trees. Seriously, not making this up. Googling Jew tree will be sufficent to find the passage in question. Remember that unlike Biblical comentaries the Koran cannot be understood without the hadiths due to structural organization and the sayings are stand alone and do not lend themselves to a united narritive, sorta like the Analects of Confusius but less fun.
      How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
      275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

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      • #4
        The Arabs will accept Jews as owners of Holy Land only if theyll con... sorry return to Islam. As they tolerated Turks as their overseers untill were bribed by Lawrence and British to rebelion... But since Jews already have powerfull military and muslims respect force only (as the fate of Caliph Ali showed) they can stick to Judaism. Good find on abrogation Wolery it's shame that sheeps in west still don't got it.
        Kosovo is Serbian.
        I support United Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
        Behead those who say Islam is violent!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Gixxer86g View Post
          The quran is just a lump of clay to be molded into whatever shape suits it's current user the best.
          Is the Bible real any different?
          "Ask not what your country can do for you"

          Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

          you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
            Is the Bible real any different?
            Nope.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
              Is the Bible real any different?


              The only difference is the vast majority of the countries that have populations of a Judeo/Christian or Hindu/Buddhist origin chose to reform and create a more tolerant, humanist and accepting society and unfortunately the opposite is true for most countries having majority Islamic populations.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by dave123 View Post
                I have a question for those who are Islamic: since the verses below support the right of the Nation of Israel to exist, aren't you defying Allah by trying to destroy it?


                Qur'an Sura 5:21-23
                [5:21] "O my people, enter the holy land that GOD has decreed for you, and do not rebel, lest you become losers."

                [5:22] They said, "O Moses, there are powerful people in it, and we will not enter it, unless they get out of it. If they get out, we are entering."

                [5:23] Two men who were reverent and blessed by GOD said, "Just enter the gate. If you just enter it, you will surely prevail. You must trust in GOD, if you are believers."


                Qur'an Sutra 17:104
                17:104] And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, "Go live into this land. When the final prophecy comes to pass, we will summon you all in one group."


                The prophet himself it appears was very intolerant of Jews and supervised some ethnic cleansing and forced conversion of Jews
                Last edited by Slim; 15 May 10, 01:22.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Slim View Post

                  The only difference is the vast majority of the countries that have populations of a Judeo/Christian or Hindu/Buddhist origin chose to reform and create a more tolerant, humanist and accepting society and unfortunately the opposite is true for most countries having majority Islamic populations.
                  Christianity is 600 years older.

                  Is Islam today much different than Christianity was in the 1400's? They seemed to spread the Bible around the world at the point of a sword in the fourteen hundreds.

                  Little deference then in the same time period of the religious development.
                  "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                  Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                  you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                    Christianity is 600 years older.

                    Is Islam today much different than Christianity was in the 1400's? They seemed to spread the Bible around the world at the point of a sword in the fourteen hundreds.

                    Little deference then in the same time period of the religious development.


                    There are many religions not much older than Islam and some actually quite younger than Islam and they do not seem to have any problem co-exixitng with others, case in point Sikhism, Buddhism Jainism, Zarostrainism, many sects of hinduism--Each of htese religions has gone through tremendous ethnic cleansing and forced conversions at the hands of Islam but still do not have a fraction of intolerance and hatred pressent as does Islam.Sikhism is just about 500 years old. Buddhism and Jainism are about as old as Islam give or take afew hundred years. Most of the Modern sects of Hinduism(which comprise the majority of Hindus) are also about as old as Islam and in some cases younger.
                    Last edited by Slim; 15 May 10, 17:34.

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                    • #11
                      The question of political governance over the territory of occupied Palestine has been addressed from the side of the resistance, and is probably best articulated by President Ahmadinejad. Unfortunately, this position in the West is not well publicized and the President's quotes on the subject are many times purposely mistranslated, such as the now famous misquote "Israel should be wiped off the map," implying a physical destruction. He never said that. He stated "the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" (بايد از صفحه روزگار محو شود), in much the same way that the USSR and the Shah vanished. But, of course, you'll never see the BBC or AP ever publish a retraction.

                      But anyway, President Ahmadinejad's solution is for a referendum to be held among the territory's residents and refugees, to determine the political governance of Palestine/Israel. That would include Jews, Muslims, Christians and Druze. The result would determine the political fate of the territory in much the same way that apartheid was finally lifted in South Africa. It would be a single-state solution.

                      Pressed by interviewers such as Larry King, President Ahmadinejad has been asked what if the vote somehow turned out in favor of a 2-state solution. He replied that it is up to residents of the territory and no one else.

                      As for Koranic justifications, it would be impossible to come up with a passage that would in anyway legitimize the imposition of a Nabka on any people on earth.
                      Last edited by علامت پیروز; 15 May 10, 19:25.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by علامت پیروز View Post
                        The question of political governance over the territory of occupied Palestine has been addressed from the side of the resistance, and is probably best articulated by President Ahmadinejad. Unfortunately, this position in the West is not well publicized and the President's quotes on the subject are many times purposely mistranslated, such as the now famous misquote "Israel should be wiped off the map," implying a physical destruction. He never said that. He stated "the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" (بايد از صفحه روزگار محو شود), in much the same way that the USSR and the Shah vanished. But, of course, you'll never see the BBC or AP ever publish a retraction.

                        But anyway, President Ahmadinejad's solution is for a referendum to be held among the territory's residents and refugees, to determine the political governance of Palestine/Israel. That would include Jews, Muslims, Christians and Druze. The result would determine the political fate of the territory in much the same way that apartheid was finally lifted in South Africa. It would be a single-state solution.

                        Pressed by interviewers such as Larry King, President Ahmadinejad has been asked what if the vote somehow turned out in favor of a 2-state solution. He replied that it is up to residents of the territory and no one else.

                        As for Koranic justifications, it would be impossible to come up with a passage that would in anyway legitimize the imposition of a Nabka on any people on earth.
                        you can not ask for a vote sixty years after you started a war and lost. Bottom line wars have consequences for those who start them and then lose.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by craven View Post
                          you can not ask for a vote sixty years after you started a war and lost. Bottom line wars have consequences for those who start them and then lose.
                          When you switch your strategy from being the glorious "Anti-Crusader" that will kill all the invaders and rape their wives to being a whiny little baby who constantly pulls on his momma's apron you can do whatever you feel like doing and you'll have full support of the world's enlighten nations.

                          The Nakba?! pffffff....please, how many Jews were lynched and deported from Arab countries in '48?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by علامت پیروز View Post
                            As for Koranic justifications, it would be impossible to come up with a passage that would in anyway legitimize the imposition of a Nabka on any people on earth.


                            The Medevial Caliphs the so called religious heads of Islam( And supposedly the most literate and authorataive interpreters of the Koran) used the Koran as ample justification to wipe out and forcibly convert masses of humanity far and wide in a pogrom that probably has no equal.
                            These Caliphs destroyed entire civilizations and almost always under the justification that they were infidels or unIslamic.The Byzantanians, The Persians, The Indians, the Jews the list goes on and on.
                            Last edited by Slim; 16 May 10, 02:03.

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                            • #15
                              who cares what a bronze age book says

                              Israel has a right to exist because, gasp, it is a current modern state. I don't care about a document written by desert nomads who had no concept of reality in terms of today's science, mathematics, and reason.

                              That goes for all Abrahamic religious. Whenever someone uses a text of the Quran, Bible, or Torah to support an international political position I put my fingers in my ears and sa LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA IRRELEVANT.

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