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So what was the trigger event for radical islam?

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  • #76
    Have you noticed that almost all devastating ideologies are founded in Europe ?

    Starting with communism, faschism, national socialism, eugenics... etc.

    Arabs learned these things from colonial powers. Party of Abdel Nasser, Saddam Hussain, Assad family was Ba'th which had pan-arab-nationalistic root.

    Antisemitic stereotypes among muslims are the same europeans had.

    It sholdnt be strange that Europe produced such a big number if foreign fighters.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Daud View Post
      Have you noticed that almost all devastating ideologies are founded in Europe ?

      Starting with communism, faschism, national socialism, eugenics... etc.

      Arabs learned these things from colonial powers. Party of Abdel Nasser, Saddam Hussain, Assad family was Ba'th which had pan-arab-nationalistic root.

      Antisemitic stereotypes among muslims are the same europeans had.

      It sholdnt be strange that Europe produced such a big number if foreign fighters.
      I keep telling you that the Middle East needs to come up with something new.
      Learn from the mistakes of the West, which ought to be pretty damned obvious by now, leave the bad behind and use the good stuff.

      Last I checked, there are almost as many people in the Arab world as there are in the USA, just imagine what they could come up with if the Government and the Clerics would just GET OUT OF THEIR WAY and let them be creative, build things, and make their own way in life.
      (that's what I mean by 'the good stuff')




      "Why is the Rum gone?"

      -Captain Jack

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      • #78
        Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post

        I keep telling you that the Middle East needs to come up with something new.
        Learn from the mistakes of the West, which ought to be pretty damned obvious by now, leave the bad behind and use the good stuff.

        Last I checked, there are almost as many people in the Arab world as there are in the USA, just imagine what they could come up with if the Government and the Clerics would just GET OUT OF THEIR WAY and let them be creative, build things, and make their own way in life.
        (that's what I mean by 'the good stuff')

        There is around 300 million arabs, but they re just 20% of muslims in the world. As Trump would say: " there is tremendous potential". When you mentioned clerics. From bad people, bad cleric will come and lead them. So they re part of the problem. People need to change.


        What ive found interesting is durring 15th century when Johann Gensfleisch / Gutenberg revolutionized book printing, idea was that all nation should be litterate and every person shoud read the Bible and personally seek way to a God.
        That fundaments led Lutheran states to progress alot faster then other world. Catholic church started to lose power over people.


        On the other side, in Ottoman Empire, only saphardic jews were allowed to print( in 1494 i think) !
        It took almost 300 years in till clerics and sultan allowed printing ! That thing was unforgivable ! We see even today results of such a bad politic.


        Reasons for not allowing printing i think were:
        - clerics didnt want to lose power over illiterate folk, they would have problems with educated folk
        - ulama didnt want to deal with flood of half - educated scholars. Something like today google-scholars lets say. I think that they had fear such persons could instill debates and argumenting among folk which would led to disorder and trouble
        - arabic symbols and words have very different system from latin and it was alot harder templates/patterns to print.



        I was really sad when i ve read that even in 19th century, more then 80% of Ottoman citizens were fully illiterate. Its not what it meant to be with first quranic revelation "read !"( Quran 96:1)

        You cant read if you re illiterate, you deserted the Book, and all other knowledge.




        But... with internet introduced in that part of the world, people got hunger for knowledge and i can track maybe in last 35 years things are changing alot, shifting to better.
        I too am able to find many litterature nowdays and can speak 3 languages, and read arabic so we re blessed alot. All of our ancestors couldnt even dream to have this.

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        • #79
          A good, thoughtful post. I cut a few bits here because I did not have anything to say about them and wanted to focus on certain things.
          (that is always the reason why I do that, unlike what some folks will say...)

          Originally posted by Daud View Post
          ...
          That fundaments led Lutheran states to progress alot faster then other world. Catholic church started to lose power over people.
          Yes, and I think they saw this coming. Years of frustration boiled over into the horrific 30 Years War.
          That one is worth looking into, some say that it was transformed the Germans into the rather uptight and combative people that they later became. A quarter of a century living in a place as bad as Pol Pot's Cambodia will do that.... and I base that on the fact that both places underwent a 30% overall reduction in population.

          Originally posted by Daud View Post
          Reasons for not allowing printing i think were:
          - clerics didnt want to lose power over illiterate folk, they would have problems with educated folk
          - ulama didnt want to deal with flood of half - educated scholars. Something like today google-scholars lets say. I think that they had fear such persons could instill debates and argumenting among folk which would led to disorder and trouble
          - arabic symbols and words have very different system from latin and it was alot harder templates/patterns to print.
          I give the first one most credit, the Clerical Class in Turkey would have known all about that war and the Reformation, and would have done anything in their power to prevent that from happening in their part of the world.

          The second one is possible, there isn't all that much that is new when it comes to human behavior. However, the solution to half-educated people is to make them finish their education.

          No, its not that it was difficult. Even it seemed impossible to set up good type from that script, people would have found a way. The only thing that is needed is the free exchange of ideas. Nobody invented the automobile. A dozen different guys figured out how to make the various pieces work, and then another hundred guys tried all sorts of ways to it all together.
          Three or four of them got it right, and the rest copied them.

          Originally posted by Daud View Post
          You cant read if you re illiterate, you deserted the Book, and all other knowledge.
          A world of YES.

          Originally posted by Daud View Post
          But... with internet introduced in that part of the world, people got hunger for knowledge and i can track maybe in last 35 years things are changing alot, shifting to better.
          I too am able to find many litterature nowdays and can speak 3 languages, and read arabic so we re blessed alot. All of our ancestors couldnt even dream to have this.
          And now, the next step for YOU ALL to take that ball and run with it.

          This isn't easy for me to say, but it has to be said; You people cannot continue to rely on the USA. (and you do, be it Europe or the Middle East or wherever).
          We aren't going to be around for much longer, not as we are now. In a very real sense, what the rest of the world has been thinking of as America is dying, already.

          But before your radical buddies start to celebrate, they ought to think about what that really means for them.
          In brief; start learning Chinese, or learn to actually stand on your own.
          There will be no other options... unless you think that trusting the Russians is a good idea...

          This goes beyond what we have been talking about. The only Arms Industry that is worthy of the name between the Arabian Sea and the Mediterranean is located in Iran. Instead of industry or even a good banking system the Gulf States build palaces and resorts that they don't want anyone from outside to get much use out of.
          Building a form of Capitalism where people can't profit from destruction would put any nation that came up with it in the cockpit of the world economy, and in the History Books.... is anyone working on that?
          Petro-dollars would enable any power making use of it to dominated Space, anyone interested?

          And on and on it goes.

          I'll have to stop there, its late and I have said too much already.
          Good luck, your generation is going to need it.
          "Why is the Rum gone?"

          -Captain Jack

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          • #80
            There was no trigger event for radical isl;am, as islam always was and is radical .

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            • #81
              Originally posted by ljadw View Post
              There was no trigger event for radical isl;am, as islam always was and is radical .
              How about an even "more radical islam", like we're experiencing now, instead, then?
              The First Amendment applies to SMS, Emails, Blogs, online news, the Fourth applies to your cell phone, computer, and your car, but the Second only applies to muskets?

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                A good, thoughtful post. I cut a few bits here because I did not have anything to say about them and wanted to focus on certain things.
                (that is always the reason why I do that, unlike what some folks will say...)



                Yes, and I think they saw this coming. Years of frustration boiled over into the horrific 30 Years War.
                That one is worth looking into, some say that it was transformed the Germans into the rather uptight and combative people that they later became. A quarter of a century living in a place as bad as Pol Pot's Cambodia will do that.... and I base that on the fact that both places underwent a 30% overall reduction in population.



                I give the first one most credit, the Clerical Class in Turkey would have known all about that war and the Reformation, and would have done anything in their power to prevent that from happening in their part of the world.

                The second one is possible, there isn't all that much that is new when it comes to human behavior. However, the solution to half-educated people is to make them finish their education.

                No, its not that it was difficult. Even it seemed impossible to set up good type from that script, people would have found a way. The only thing that is needed is the free exchange of ideas. Nobody invented the automobile. A dozen different guys figured out how to make the various pieces work, and then another hundred guys tried all sorts of ways to it all together.
                Three or four of them got it right, and the rest copied them.



                A world of YES.



                And now, the next step for YOU ALL to take that ball and run with it.

                This isn't easy for me to say, but it has to be said; You people cannot continue to rely on the USA. (and you do, be it Europe or the Middle East or wherever).
                We aren't going to be around for much longer, not as we are now. In a very real sense, what the rest of the world has been thinking of as America is dying, already.

                But before your radical buddies start to celebrate, they ought to think about what that really means for them.
                In brief; start learning Chinese, or learn to actually stand on your own.
                There will be no other options... unless you think that trusting the Russians is a good idea...

                This goes beyond what we have been talking about. The only Arms Industry that is worthy of the name between the Arabian Sea and the Mediterranean is located in Iran. Instead of industry or even a good banking system the Gulf States build palaces and resorts that they don't want anyone from outside to get much use out of.
                Building a form of Capitalism where people can't profit from destruction would put any nation that came up with it in the cockpit of the world economy, and in the History Books.... is anyone working on that?
                Petro-dollars would enable any power making use of it to dominated Space, anyone interested?

                And on and on it goes.

                I'll have to stop there, its late and I have said too much already.
                Good luck, your generation is going to need it.

                We agree on 99% of things. I would like to add few things.

                My "buddies" which you mentioned are, as we would say, limited as balconies, narrow minded idiots that doestn even see how much west gave to mankind from 1700 onwards, start eith french mathematicians onward. Im not fan of alternative medicine, so i would rather have a an antibiotic then sticking pommes frites in my ass. I enjoy in things these people discovered
                ------------------

                About not relying on someone, yes, indeed, honor comes only from independence, its in our religious literature, but for some nations its easier to buy then to think
                ------------------

                printing was indeed harder, with latin you can use A... B...R.. symbols and combine whatever you want, with arabic is alot harder since letters are connected to eachother and you would need every word .

                -----------------


                Capitalism and free market was in middle east long before it was implemented in wewtern world, and its really easy to give some references.

                Ive found some adjustments to it in Islam, something like counter-inflation i would say. Upper class people would give (special-tax) 2.5% of money they stored ( not invested) for a longer time and give it to lowest class in order to improve their buying power and boost economy. And of course, interest rates would be eradicated and all bigger capital entities would have risk for every investment just like everyone does. They would not be able to earn money risk-free like eith usury.

                ---------------------


                As much as west hypocritical is, i find myself closer to christian world, and so different from chinese/indian and other pagan world. So if i must chose, its not even hard.
                Last edited by Daud; 20 Feb 19, 04:52.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                  There was no trigger event for radical isl;am, as islam always was and is radical .
                  You would lose that debate.

                  Some people are not able to take off their ideological glasess and see things as they are. I believe you re one of those.
                  Last edited by Daud; 20 Feb 19, 05:10.

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                  • #84
                    I see things as they are : I see adult Muslims forcing ,in the name of the Islam ,children to behead other people, amongst the total indifference of the other Muslims .

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Daud View Post
                      My "buddies" which you mentioned are, as we would say, limited as balconies, narrow minded idiots that doestn even see how much west gave to mankind from 1700 onwards, start eith french mathematicians onward. Im not fan of alternative medicine, so i would rather have a an antibiotic then sticking pommes frites in my ass.
                      Are you using some translation engine by chance ?

                      While fascinating no doubt, this doesn't make a lot of sense ?



                      High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                        I see things as they are : I see adult Muslims forcing ,in the name of the Islam ,children to behead other people, amongst the total indifference of the other Muslims .
                        No tunnel vision - you missed "a few" adult etc
                        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                          I see things as they are : I see adult Muslims forcing ,in the name of the Islam ,children to behead other people, amongst the total indifference of the other Muslims .

                          Ive seen a man who hit another one with a car.
                          Its time that we forbid cars fully.



                          you re all over the place. You met vietnamese i guess
                          Attached Files

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

                            Are you using some translation engine by chance ?

                            While fascinating no doubt, this doesn't make a lot of sense ?



                            Nope. Just seen some funny text on net about hemorrhoid threatment with potatos , so i guess those people sticking pommes frites in anus in order to heal themselves.

                            i just said its better to have drugs instead.

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                            • #89
                              The Muslims performing the so-called "terrorist" actions refer to what they do as Jihad, and anyone being honest about Islam would acknowledge that there are different forms of Jihad. These Islamists/Jihadists view themselves as fundamentalists of Islam and true followers Muhammad's example and command;

                              "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah."

                              From;
                              Book 001, Number 0033:
                              It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

                              http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religiou...t.php#001.0033

                              One may find Numbers 0030, 0031, 0032 of related interest as well.
                              https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...ad-gwot/page64
                              TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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                              • #90
                                There is a Catch 22 here in that what was said to Muhammad by Allah can't be changed and the last of the revelations is very anti non-Muslim. The Koran is not arranged in order of revelation, but roughly longest to shortest of the chapters/Surah. Any later revelation that contradicts an earlier one is the one that was to apply, abrogation. Here's a link to the chronological order of the Koran;
                                http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Chronologi...f_the_Qur%27an

                                Some of the relating passages of the Koran, addressing the mandate of (physical)Jihad(Holy War) and rewards for engaging in such, etc.;

                                [2.154] And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.
                                [2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.
                                [4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.
                                [4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.
                                [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
                                [5.32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
                                [5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
                                [8.38] Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.
                                [8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
                                [8.60] And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
                                [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
                                [9.36] Surely the number of months with Allah is twelve months in Allah's ordinance since the day when He created the heavens and the earth, of these four being sacred; that is the right reckoning; therefore be not unjust to yourselves regarding them, and fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
                                [33.26] And He drove down those of the followers of the Book who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive another part.
                                [33.27] And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things.
                                [47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
                                [47.5] He will guide them and improve their condition.
                                [47.6] And cause them to enter the garden which He has made known to them.
                                http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html

                                https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...ad-gwot/page64
                                TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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