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So what was the trigger event for radical islam?

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  • Daud
    replied
    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post

    Are you kidding?!?

    Mongolian folk-metal is one of he few new & unusual things I have seen in the music world this century. Those instruments are just bizarre.... a two-string instrument that can be strummed and plucked, sometimes both at the same time.... how weird is that?

    Regarding an earlier chat we had; You can't just assume that anything modern is solely Western. The people of Mongolia, China, Japan, India and Southeast Asia would have a serious problem with the blanket assumption than everything they have from hot water to Jet Airliners to comfy furniture are not their own.... and the places listed above comprise more than half the people alive on this world at this time.




    I was trying to crack a joke. Confident people can laugh, even at themselves.... but I guess it wasn't a good one. Still, the lyrics are a hoot!

    i just said that sound is simmilar to music in western movies and games. what is definition if modernity after all ? guys with long beards and hair singing uuuuiiiuiiiiuuuii ?

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    That's essentially correct. The Mongol invasion of the Middle East was the precipitous event that turned Islam from a rather vibrant and inclusive religion into a dour and vengeful one. Since then, the continued tribalism of the Arab world has exacerbated that tendency. Most of the worst of radical Islam are those who are stuck in what would otherwise be the middle class in Western culture. Most of the most radical Islamists are those that cannot and never will have the ability to rise to power but are intelligent enough, and educated enough to recognize that.
    These are the children of reasonably wealthy Arab families who went to Western universities where Leftist professors further radicalized them before they returned home. For much of radical Islam, religion is an excuse for what they do rather than a reason. It has been no different with Marx and Communism before them. There have been previous iterations of this as well.

    But, without the Mongols, Islam would have likely lacked the necessary streak for revenge it has in the Quran. Without that, radical Islam probably wouldn't exist. Instead, the same disgruntled people would have taken up fascism or communism as their mantle to rise to power.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by Daud View Post

    Why is sound so similar to western movies/games music ? This could be main theme of Gunslinger od Red Dead Redemption.
    Are you kidding?!?

    Mongolian folk-metal is one of he few new & unusual things I have seen in the music world this century. Those instruments are just bizarre.... a two-string instrument that can be strummed and plucked, sometimes both at the same time.... how weird is that?

    Regarding an earlier chat we had; You can't just assume that anything modern is solely Western. The people of Mongolia, China, Japan, India and Southeast Asia would have a serious problem with the blanket assumption than everything they have from hot water to Jet Airliners to comfy furniture are not their own.... and the places listed above comprise more than half the people alive on this world at this time.


    Originally posted by Daud View Post
    What do you mean by round2 ?
    I was trying to crack a joke. Confident people can laugh, even at themselves.... but I guess it wasn't a good one. Still, the lyrics are a hoot!

    Leave a comment:


  • Daud
    replied
    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
    If you are looking at something that happened 800 years ago for the Trigger for something that started within the last 50 years, I can't help you.
    I'm sticking to 1979.

    But, since the Mongols have been mentioned, I'll let them have a say in it -




    And yes, Close Captioning works on this one.


    Ready for round 2?
    Why is sound so similar to western movies/games music ? This could be main theme of Gunslinger od Red Dead Redemption.

    What do you mean by round2 ?

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    If you are looking at something that happened 800 years ago for the Trigger for something that started within the last 50 years, I can't help you.
    I'm sticking to 1979.

    But, since the Mongols have been mentioned, I'll let them have a say in it -




    And yes, Close Captioning works on this one.


    Ready for round 2?

    Leave a comment:


  • Daud
    replied
    Thank you for spending your time Salinator to write your comment. I like history.

    Some people argue that Baibars was a real person in charge and Saifuddeen Qutuz was just a sultan figure.

    You ll find Baibars' speech to an army too
    ​​​and not Qutuzs so many believe if was Baibars who killed emmisaries.

    However, every empire has growth period and decline period, peak and lowest level. Our civilisation is dynamic.

    Interesting thing is that when empire get ritch with food surplus, people become lathargic and lose willpower to survive, work, defend etc. Their territory is defined. Society in that situation will start to stagnate. ( see : mouse utopia experiment - 1968 )

    It happened to Khawarism and Abasids too. They had enough resources to crush mongols at start of their campaign, without bigger problem.

    Maybe first years would be problematic till they understand mongols tactics and strengths. Abasids and Khawarizmians had alot bigget population then mongols. But loving life too much instilled fear in their hearts.



    We knew frim start that war would happen



    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said, “The Hour will not be established till you fight with the Khudh and the Kirman from among the non-Arabs. They will be of red faces, flat noses and small eyes; their faces will look like flat shields, and their shoes will be of hair.”

    حَدَّثَنِي يَحْيَى، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ، عَنْ مَعْمَرٍ، عَنْ هَمَّامٍ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ “‏ لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى تُقَاتِلُوا خُوزًا وَكَرْمَانَ مِنَ الأَعَاجِمِ، حُمْرَ الْوُجُوهِ، فُطْسَ الأُنُوفِ، صِغَارَ الأَعْيُنِ، وُجُوهُهُمُ الْمَجَانُّ الْمُطْرَقَةُ، نِعَالُهُمُ الشَّعَرُ ‏”‏‏.‏ تَابَعَهُ غَيْرُهُ عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّزَّاقِ‏.‏

    English reference:- Sahih Muslim : Vol. 4, Book 56, Hadith 788

    Arabic reference:-Sahih Muslim : Book 61, Hadith 3632

    Prophecy in Effect: The Mongols, under Hulagu Khan (grandson of Gengis Khan) invaded 659 years after Prophecised, he ransacked Baghdad, the capital city of the Muslims and the Abbasid dynasty in the year 1258 CE/659 AH (Hijri.) (see here) Muslims thereafter fought and continued to be defeated until the battle of Ayn Jaloot (1260CE/661 AH) whereafter the Mongol dynasty did not have its potent effect as it had before.
    One of the primary distinguishing signs of the Mongols was the animal fur they wore. And their red, flat faces:

    ^A picture of the emperor Kublai Khan with a red, wide (shield-like) face as Prophet Muhammed predicted.

    ^A picture of the emperor (Tomor Olziit Khaan) , one of the Mongols kings

    ^A picture of a Mongol warrior , see the beaver fur on his head.

    The Mongols came around 700 years after the death of God's Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him). They were extremely violent against the Muslims (so much so that this is one of the most famous conflicts known in Muslim history). The Mongols became Muslims later, but the harm they had caused as non Muslims was one of the reasons for the demise of the Muslim Golden Age.

    So its no surprise that it was mentioned specifically by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) more than any other conflict as one of the signs of the approaching of Judgment Day.





    Massive killing by mongols was like spreading of black death desease and it led muslims to believe that they were Gog and Magog creatures.

    Leave a comment:


  • Salinator
    replied
    Originally posted by Daud View Post


    Mamluks went outside to fight mongols, they didnt want to fight them by defending in some fortress. They were defending side and mongols came to conquer them. On a number of combatants we can argue on both sides, its history.

    I dont know what do you mean " we were lucky". Do you think arabs or Islam or something ?

    As we mentioned, Islam already absorbed part of mongols and its not possible to defeat it by some external force/enemy. But arabs as ethnic group could be replaced in that region.




    Killing emmisaries is fully forbidden !

    O you who believe, be true to your covenants.” (Al-Ma’idah 5:1)

    ​The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “Whoever hurts a person who is enjoying immunity under a pact of protection, I will be his adversary on the Day of Resurrection….whoever kills such a person cannot even smell the fragrance of paradise…” (Reported by Ibn Hajar, Al-Sakhawi and others​​​​​​)



    The reason mamluks killed emissary in my opinion is their humiliating letter which Hulagu have sent. He threaten to burn all mosques and rape women and ti make more other medieval stuff, so Baibars gave them that kind of an answer.
    It wasn't Baibars that killed the emissaries, he was not Sultan at the time, just one of the many tribal Emirs. It was Qutuz that had the emmissaries beheaded and their heads hung on the gates of Cairo and assembled the army and led them out of Egypt after Hulegu had already withdrawn. Qutuz was assassinated by Emirs after Ain Jalut in a conspiracy led by Baibars who then became Sultan.

    Lucky as in the survival of Islam. Death of the Great Khan. Animosity between Berke and Hulegu, which led to Berke siding with the Mamluks and send men to help the Mamluk cause. Breakout of full open civil war between the Mongols.

    At Ain Julut and every battle after that, never did they face the full might of the Ilkhanate, let alone the combined wrath of the Mongol Khanates.

    In 1262, Hulegu returned and was assembling his full army to avenge for Ain Jalut when the Ilkhanate was attacked in the rear by the Golden Horde, drawing Hulegu north to attack in the Caucasus instead of the Holy Land. Then Chagatai Khanate sided with Golden Horde. Hulegu and his successors were now embroiled in long war against two of the four major Khanates and had a lot more on his plate, and the Holy Land and Egypt now became a side attraction. Kublai Khan still had not finished off the Song in China and were not able to help out Hulegu from the East.

    Here is a closer look at the geographical situation of the Mongol factions. Don't pay attention to the campaign arrows, it is not 100% accurate.

    IslamMongolEmpireMap.jpg

    Despite all that, Ain Jalut did not stop the Ilkanate expansion in the Middle East, that would the Battle of Wadi al-Khazandar in 1299, were the Ilkhanid army under Ghazan Khan decisively defeated the Mamluks, capturing Damascus, and pursuing as far as Gaza. However he was also engaged in war with the Chagatai at the same time and in failing health, so he withdrew.
    Last edited by Salinator; 08 Feb 19, 18:44.

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  • Daud
    replied
    Originally posted by Salinator View Post

    Mamluks were the aggressors. Mamluks came out of Egypt after knowing that Hulegu had left the Holy Land. Mamluks numbered 140,000 with Baibars and Golden Horde traitors in their ranks. It was not 1:1 as the actual battle had about 20-25,000 Mamluks that is recorded to be have engaged at Ain Jalut vs 12,000 Mongols and and friends total that were left behind to guard Hulegu's rear from the Sinai to the Euphrates.

    Baghdad was an agricultural region with rich soil between two great rivers. Hulegu killed all the inhabitants except those that were Christians, so there were no one left to work the lands, He had Baghdad rebuilt and installed a Catholic Cathedral. Baghdad would would never again be a agricultural region because Hulegu had all the water canals and cut during the siege. What transformed Baghdad into a business center and wealth is that the Mongols connected the dots on the Silk Road and fiercely patrolled it.

    Mongol envoy heads were about the time Mongke died and Hulegu had to leave. You're damn lucky that Mongke died is how I see it. Why do you think there is pride in killing emissaries?

    Mamluks went outside to fight mongols, they didnt want to fight them by defending in some fortress. They were defending side and mongols came to conquer them. On a number of combatants we can argue on both sides, its history.

    I dont know what do you mean " we were lucky". Do you think arabs or Islam or something ?

    As we mentioned, Islam already absorbed part of mongols and its not possible to defeat it by some external force/enemy. But arabs as ethnic group could be replaced in that region.




    Killing emmisaries is fully forbidden !

    O you who believe, be true to your covenants.” (Al-Ma’idah 5:1)

    ​The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “Whoever hurts a person who is enjoying immunity under a pact of protection, I will be his adversary on the Day of Resurrection….whoever kills such a person cannot even smell the fragrance of paradise…” (Reported by Ibn Hajar, Al-Sakhawi and others​​​​​​)



    The reason mamluks killed emissary in my opinion is their humiliating letter which Hulagu have sent. He threaten to burn all mosques and rape women and ti make more other medieval stuff, so Baibars gave them that kind of an answer.
    Last edited by Daud; 07 Feb 19, 05:13.

    Leave a comment:


  • Salinator
    replied
    Originally posted by Daud View Post
    Salinator, yes, real army had 150 000 men and Hulagu Khan went back after great Khan died. But, rear guard as you called it were aggressors, didnt have a goal to defend an army because there wasnt any threat at all, but small mamluk army.

    Ain Jalut was pretty 1:1 battle but significance of that battle was not on battlefield only but more.

    'Till that moment mongols looked invisible, won every battle and killed everyone in genocidal way.
    After the battle people relized that mongols can be defeated and it was wake up moment for muslims who fought further in Syria and Iraq. Cities were liberated one after another.

    There are many things to learn from this event:

    - Baghdad had all money and knowledge and power in the world, was center of civilisation at that time, yet they were slain as dogs - 800 000 were killed in a most brutal fashion. They were too corrupt with partying and they cut-off military spending

    - on other side, mamkluks had small province poor province, but were trained in combat at start as slaves and they had gut to fight whole army of 150 000 if needed. Mamluks killed mongol ambassador and put his head on gates of Cairo. They were not paralysed by fear as Abasids adn were decisive to fight.
    Its about quality of men, not quantity. God help whom he wills.

    - never in history did conquering people immitated those that were conquered. It was opposite all the time. People immitated those that were strong. But in this case it was opposite, many mongols accepted Islam and it was one of the reasons civil war started and at the end their empire died and islamic banners were still there.

    - military is just one segment of and empire. Mongols were fast in spreading but were fast in decomposing. With first greater calmity they were gone.
    Mamluks were the aggressors. Mamluks came out of Egypt after knowing that Hulegu had left the Holy Land. Mamluks numbered 140,000 with Baibars and Golden Horde traitors in their ranks. It was not 1:1 as the actual battle had about 20-25,000 Mamluks that is recorded to be have engaged at Ain Jalut vs 12,000 Mongols and and friends total that were left behind to guard Hulegu's rear from the Sinai to the Euphrates.

    Baghdad was an agricultural region with rich soil between two great rivers. Hulegu killed all the inhabitants except those that were Christians, so there were no one left to work the lands, He had Baghdad rebuilt and installed a Catholic Cathedral. Baghdad would would never again be a agricultural region because Hulegu had all the water canals and cut during the siege. What transformed Baghdad into a business center and wealth is that the Mongols connected the dots on the Silk Road and fiercely patrolled it.

    Mongol envoy heads were about the time Mongke died and Hulegu had to leave. You're damn lucky that Mongke died is how I see it. Why do you think there is pride in killing emissaries?
    Last edited by Salinator; 07 Feb 19, 01:53.

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  • Daud
    replied
    Salinator, yes, real army had 150 000 men and Hulagu Khan went back after great Khan died. But, rear guard as you called it were aggressors, didnt have a goal to defend an army because there wasnt any threat at all, but small mamluk army. Hulagu left as much men as he believed will be enough to destroy mamluks. I cant understand why people have a wish to reduce this victory and reduce importance of this historical moment too.

    This was like a Tyson losing to Douglas, his first defeat, but on a world and historical scale.
    Thats why is called Ayn Jalut - spring of Goliath.

    It is mentioned in the Book of Judges, chapter 7, where it is said that Gideon dismissed 22,000 potential warriors who were "fearful and afraid" and then chose 300 men to fight with him according to how they drank water from the Well of Harod.

    Ain Jalut was pretty 1:1 battle but significance of that battle was not on battlefield only but alot more.

    'Till that moment mongols looked invisible, won every battle and killed everyone in genocidal way.
    After the battle people relized that mongols can be defeated and it was wake up moment for muslims who fought further in Syria and Iraq. Cities were liberated one after another.

    There are many things to learn from this event:

    - Baghdad had all money and knowledge and power in the world, was center of civilisation at that time, yet they were slain as dogs - 800 000 were killed in a most brutal fashion. They were too corrupt with partying and they cut-off military spending

    - on other side, mamkluks had small province poor province, but were trained in combat at start as slaves and they had gut to fight whole army of 150 000 if needed. Mamluks killed mongol ambassador and put his head on gates of Cairo. They were not paralysed by fear as Abasids adn were decisive to fight.
    Its about quality of men, not quantity. God help whom he wills.

    - never in history did conquering people immitated those that were conquered. It was opposite all the time. People immitated those that were strong. But in this case it was opposite, many mongols accepted Islam and it was one of the reasons civil war started and at the end their empire died and islamic banners were still there.

    - military is just one segment of and empire. Mongols were fast in spreading but were fast in decomposing. With first greater calmity they were gone.
    Last edited by Daud; 07 Feb 19, 01:24.

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  • Salinator
    replied
    Originally posted by Daud View Post

    Would , could, should...


    The fact is that Ain Jalut was a turning point and mongols started to lose ground further on east and got beaten several times.

    It wasnt rear guard but an army with a goal to defeat Mamluks. Mongols believed 50 000 was enough for that job

    That battle boosted morale of people and situation went 180° direction.

    In future many mongols accepted Islam and many children of Mongol Empire -Khanates were pure Islamic, so no, it would not be end of Islam. Transition happened durring golden horde era'.

    Its exactly what we believe:


    يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ مَن يَرۡتَدَّ مِنكُمۡ عَن دِينِهِۦ فَسَوۡفَ يَأۡتِي ٱللَّهُ بِقَوۡمٖ يُحِبُّهُمۡ وَيُحِبُّونَهُۥٓ أَذِلَّةٍ عَلَى ٱلۡمُؤۡمِنِينَ أَعِزَّةٍ عَلَى ٱلۡكَٰفِرِينَ يُجَٰهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ وَلَا يَخَافُونَ لَوۡمَةَ لَآئِمٖۚ ذَٰلِكَ فَضۡلُ ٱللَّهِ يُؤۡتِيهِ مَن يَشَآءُۚ وَٱللَّهُ وَٰسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ


    O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.

    -Sure Al-Māʾidah, Vers 54



    __ Chapter (47) sūrat muḥammad




    Sahih International: Here you are - those invited to spend in the cause of Allah - but among you are those who withhold [out of greed]. And whoever withholds only withholds [benefit] from himself; and Allah is the Free of need, while you are the needy. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you.

    It was just a process. Abassids were too deviant and they were torn apart.
    Hulegu had originally planned to attack the Mamluks in Eygpt, but the death of the Great Khan stopped that. He had approximately a 150,000 men army when he sent envoys to the Mamluks in Egypt. Hulegu had to attend to business because both the newly deceased Great Khan Mongke and the newly anointed Great Khan Kublai but challenged in a civil war in Mongolia were both his brothers, Upon his withdrawal with the bulk of his forces, he left only one tumen of Mongol warriors along with Christian Armenians and Georgians totaling 12,000 men west of Euphrates. THAT is the definition of a rearguard and Islamic revisionism cannot change that.

    Hulegu had destroyed Baghdad, but spared all those that were Christians after the city fell. That did not sit well with Berke Khan of the Golden Horde that had converted to Islam. It was only the sheer power of Mongke, the last Great Khan of the unified Mongol Khanates that kept Berke at bay. The moment Mongke died, all gloves were off and Berke Khan's Golden Horde Khanate began to openly attack Hulegu's Ilkhanate. The "Mamluks" that fought the Ilkhanate forces included a significant number of Golden Horde forces (primarily Kipchaks) that were sent by Berke to reinforce them. That is what is now referred to as a proxy war.

    In 1262, after Kublai's claim to Great Khan was established but never solidified, Hulegu returned his attention to the Holy Land and North Africa. But it was not to be because Golden Horde and Ilkhanate were in open Mongol civil war, The fourth faction Chagatai Khanate allied with Golden Horde,

    If it helps with moral with the "Mamluks" defeated" the Mongols, then by all means knock yourself out. However Islam survived because the Mongols became divided. Islam did prevail. Ain Jalut had nothing to do with it because in the end, the Ilkhanate being cut off and separated from her fellow Toluiids by two other Khanates that had converted to Islam, finally herself also converted to Islam

    You're confused with Mongol history and are placing far more importance on the "Mamlukes" that defeated a rearguard instead of realizing that Islam survived because it itself converted the side that wanted to destroy it.

    Cairo would not have survived if not for Mongol civil war. Hulegu wanted to draft one of every ten men of the entire Mongol Empire for his planned invasion of Egypt that were never to come because the Mongol Empire was never ONE again.

    Leave a comment:


  • marktwain
    replied
    Originally posted by Daud View Post

    Would , could, should...


    The fact is that Ain Jalut was a turning point and mongols started to lose ground further on east and got beaten several times.

    It wasnt rear guard but an army with a goal to defeat Mamluks. Mongols believed 50 000 was enough for that job

    That battle boosted morale of people and situation went 180° direction.

    In future many mongols accepted Islam and many children of Mongol Empire -Khanates were pure Islamic, so no, it would not be end of Islam. Transition happened durring golden horde era'.

    Its exactly what we believe:


    يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ مَن يَرۡتَدَّ مِنكُمۡ عَن دِينِهِۦ فَسَوۡفَ يَأۡتِي ٱللَّهُ بِقَوۡمٖ يُحِبُّهُمۡ وَيُحِبُّونَهُۥٓ أَذِلَّةٍ عَلَى ٱلۡمُؤۡمِنِينَ أَعِزَّةٍ عَلَى ٱلۡكَٰفِرِينَ يُجَٰهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ وَلَا يَخَافُونَ لَوۡمَةَ لَآئِمٖۚ ذَٰلِكَ فَضۡلُ ٱللَّهِ يُؤۡتِيهِ مَن يَشَآءُۚ وَٱللَّهُ وَٰسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ


    O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.

    -Sure Al-Māʾidah, Vers 54



    __ Chapter (47) sūrat muḥammad




    Sahih International: Here you are - those invited to spend in the cause of Allah - but among you are those who withhold [out of greed]. And whoever withholds only withholds [benefit] from himself; and Allah is the Free of need, while you are the needy. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you.


    It was just a process. Abassids were too deviant and they were torn apart.
    Interesting analysis and welcome to the foras., Daud.

    Leave a comment:


  • Daud
    replied
    Originally posted by Salinator View Post

    Actually you got it backwards The Mongols broke the back of Islam in the Middle East, Islam's last stronghold was North Africa.

    Hulegu Khan's invasion of the Middle East should have been listed as a Crusade, by hey White Christian revisionist history does not like to share that "glory" with the yellow guys from the steppes. During the times of the Mongols, the three pillars of Islam was Bagdad, Damascus, and Cairo. Unlike all their previous invasions westwards which were multi-pronged lighting strikes, the invasion was slow and methodical with lots of genocide. Whereas before, they wanted submission, tribute and booty, they wanted total capitulation in the Middle East. Baghdad was razed and the earth salted, so many killed that the River Tigris ran red and the stench of all those put to the scimitar fouled the air for miles and even the Mongols themselves that relished the smell of the dead moved their camp upwind.

    Unlike their previous indifference of religions, this time Mosques and worshipers were killed. Instead of advancing in clusters and columns, they cut a wide swath through the Middle East, a move that was later imitated by Sherman with his "March to the Sea".

    Damascus was more or less of a rinse and repeat, and later became the capitol of Hulegu's faction, the Ilkhanate. The Mongols captured the Levant, sacked Muslim Jerusalem, and drove most Muslim forces across the Sinai and into Egypt, They achieved all that in spite of being betrayed by the Franks that allowed Muslim forces safe passage across their territory, even though the Ilkhanate in theory were allied and the Mongols were blessed by the Vatican. The Mongols and were on the verge of marching on Cairo when once again, the world was saved because yet another Mongol Great Khan had died right about when doom was inevitable and imminent.

    Hulegu withdrew to Damascus, but did not personally attend the Kuriltai to elect the new Great Khan because the newly deceased Great Khan was the last to be the universally accepted ruler. Hell, the next Great Khan also did not, and a civil war broke out, The Mongols were no longer united, oddly it was the direct descendants of Genghis' four sons and religion that divided them.

    Hulegu was the brother of Kublai, But between Hulegu conquering the Middle East, and Kublai conquering China, there are two factions that opposed them, and separated them for ever joining again as the Toluids (descendants of Tolui, youngest son of Genghis), the Golden Horde and the Chagatai Khanate which both have now converted to Islam.

    Revisionist history says that the Mamluks drove the Mongols out of the Holy Land. That is not true, Hulegu had already left the Holy Land to take a war stance against the Mongolian factions that stood between he and Kublai. What the Mamluks defeated at the Battle of An Julat was a rear guard left behind by Hulegu that consisted of Nestorian Christians from Georgia that disobeyed orders not to engage and in fact attacked when it fell for the old feigned retreated move that was perfected by the Mongols themselves. It was not decisive as the bulk of the Ilkhanate was not there, and Hulegu never came back because he was fighting a Mongol civil war.

    Had Mongke Khan not died when he did, Hulegu would have taken Cairo without much sweat and Islam would now be a side note in history.
    Would , could, should...


    The fact is that Ain Jalut was a turning point and mongols started to lose ground further on east and got beaten several times.

    It wasnt rear guard but an army with a goal to defeat Mamluks. Mongols believed 50 000 was enough for that job

    That battle boosted morale of people and situation went 180° direction.

    In future many mongols accepted Islam and many children of Mongol Empire -Khanates were pure Islamic, so no, it would not be end of Islam. Transition happened durring golden horde era'.

    Its exactly what we believe:


    يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ مَن يَرۡتَدَّ مِنكُمۡ عَن دِينِهِۦ فَسَوۡفَ يَأۡتِي ٱللَّهُ بِقَوۡمٖ يُحِبُّهُمۡ وَيُحِبُّونَهُۥٓ أَذِلَّةٍ عَلَى ٱلۡمُؤۡمِنِينَ أَعِزَّةٍ عَلَى ٱلۡكَٰفِرِينَ يُجَٰهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ وَلَا يَخَافُونَ لَوۡمَةَ لَآئِمٖۚ ذَٰلِكَ فَضۡلُ ٱللَّهِ يُؤۡتِيهِ مَن يَشَآءُۚ وَٱللَّهُ وَٰسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ


    O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.

    -Sure Al-Māʾidah, Vers 54



    __ Chapter (47) sūrat muḥammad




    Sahih International: Here you are - those invited to spend in the cause of Allah - but among you are those who withhold [out of greed]. And whoever withholds only withholds [benefit] from himself; and Allah is the Free of need, while you are the needy. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you.


    It was just a process. Abassids were too deviant and they were torn apart.

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  • G David Bock
    replied
    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
    What kicked off the current wave of bloodshed?

    The Soviet invasion of Afghan? The fall of the Shah? The abandonment of military actions against Israel?

    What set the spark to the tinder for the fire that is consuming the Middle East and other areas? It isn't just jihad, because they're killing far more muslims than they are infidels.

    So what set it off?
    Assuming by "current wave" you mean within the 20th century or so ...

    1) UN creation of Israel as an independent state - Islamic fundamentalists saw this as a take-away from the Dar al-Islam and a strong issue to fight over. With defeat of the neighboring Islamic/Arab states that sought to extinguish Israel/Jews, the fall-back position has been global "terrorism", along with recurrent attacks upon Israel.

    2) The USA support to anti-Soviet forces in Afghanistan during the 1980s. We provided funding, equipment, and training to resist the Soviets in that nation and indirectly trained, armed, and encouraged(delusioned) "Islamic Jihad" to think they are capable of defeating the rest of the World/West.

    Note this is just a revitalizing of the 1400 year old agenda started by Muhammad from his post-orgasmic pederastic inspirations received back about 620s AD onward.

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  • Konzev
    replied
    Originally posted by nastle View Post
    how much is the west complicit in aiding muslim radicals in their holy crusade against russians
    lets talk about that too
    this did not start in 1970, all the way back to crimean war when british and french for their own selfish interests propped up the ailing ottoman empire which had so mercilessly massacred the christians of the balkans
    The Saudi-funded spread of Wahhabism began as a result of Western countries asking Riyadh to help counter the Soviet Union during the Cold War, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman told the Washington Post. He added that successive Saudi governments had lost track of that effort, saying "we have to get it all back." Bin Salman also said that funding now comes mostly from Saudi-based "foundations," rather than from the government.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.4d148820424a

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