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So what was the trigger event for radical islam?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Salinator View Post

    Mamluks were the aggressors. Mamluks came out of Egypt after knowing that Hulegu had left the Holy Land. Mamluks numbered 140,000 with Baibars and Golden Horde traitors in their ranks. It was not 1:1 as the actual battle had about 20-25,000 Mamluks that is recorded to be have engaged at Ain Jalut vs 12,000 Mongols and and friends total that were left behind to guard Hulegu's rear from the Sinai to the Euphrates.

    Baghdad was an agricultural region with rich soil between two great rivers. Hulegu killed all the inhabitants except those that were Christians, so there were no one left to work the lands, He had Baghdad rebuilt and installed a Catholic Cathedral. Baghdad would would never again be a agricultural region because Hulegu had all the water canals and cut during the siege. What transformed Baghdad into a business center and wealth is that the Mongols connected the dots on the Silk Road and fiercely patrolled it.

    Mongol envoy heads were about the time Mongke died and Hulegu had to leave. You're damn lucky that Mongke died is how I see it. Why do you think there is pride in killing emissaries?

    Mamluks went outside to fight mongols, they didnt want to fight them by defending in some fortress. They were defending side and mongols came to conquer them. On a number of combatants we can argue on both sides, its history.

    I dont know what do you mean " we were lucky". Do you think arabs or Islam or something ?

    As we mentioned, Islam already absorbed part of mongols and its not possible to defeat it by some external force/enemy. But arabs as ethnic group could be replaced in that region.




    Killing emmisaries is fully forbidden !

    O you who believe, be true to your covenants.” (Al-Ma’idah 5:1)

    ​The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “Whoever hurts a person who is enjoying immunity under a pact of protection, I will be his adversary on the Day of Resurrection….whoever kills such a person cannot even smell the fragrance of paradise…” (Reported by Ibn Hajar, Al-Sakhawi and others​​​​​​)



    The reason mamluks killed emissary in my opinion is their humiliating letter which Hulagu have sent. He threaten to burn all mosques and rape women and ti make more other medieval stuff, so Baibars gave them that kind of an answer.
    Last edited by Daud; 07 Feb 19, 05:13.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Daud View Post


      Mamluks went outside to fight mongols, they didnt want to fight them by defending in some fortress. They were defending side and mongols came to conquer them. On a number of combatants we can argue on both sides, its history.

      I dont know what do you mean " we were lucky". Do you think arabs or Islam or something ?

      As we mentioned, Islam already absorbed part of mongols and its not possible to defeat it by some external force/enemy. But arabs as ethnic group could be replaced in that region.




      Killing emmisaries is fully forbidden !

      O you who believe, be true to your covenants.” (Al-Ma’idah 5:1)

      ​The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “Whoever hurts a person who is enjoying immunity under a pact of protection, I will be his adversary on the Day of Resurrection….whoever kills such a person cannot even smell the fragrance of paradise…” (Reported by Ibn Hajar, Al-Sakhawi and others​​​​​​)



      The reason mamluks killed emissary in my opinion is their humiliating letter which Hulagu have sent. He threaten to burn all mosques and rape women and ti make more other medieval stuff, so Baibars gave them that kind of an answer.
      It wasn't Baibars that killed the emissaries, he was not Sultan at the time, just one of the many tribal Emirs. It was Qutuz that had the emmissaries beheaded and their heads hung on the gates of Cairo and assembled the army and led them out of Egypt after Hulegu had already withdrawn. Qutuz was assassinated by Emirs after Ain Jalut in a conspiracy led by Baibars who then became Sultan.

      Lucky as in the survival of Islam. Death of the Great Khan. Animosity between Berke and Hulegu, which led to Berke siding with the Mamluks and send men to help the Mamluk cause. Breakout of full open civil war between the Mongols.

      At Ain Julut and every battle after that, never did they face the full might of the Ilkhanate, let alone the combined wrath of the Mongol Khanates.

      In 1262, Hulegu returned and was assembling his full army to avenge for Ain Jalut when the Ilkhanate was attacked in the rear by the Golden Horde, drawing Hulegu north to attack in the Caucasus instead of the Holy Land. Then Chagatai Khanate sided with Golden Horde. Hulegu and his successors were now embroiled in long war against two of the four major Khanates and had a lot more on his plate, and the Holy Land and Egypt now became a side attraction. Kublai Khan still had not finished off the Song in China and were not able to help out Hulegu from the East.

      Here is a closer look at the geographical situation of the Mongol factions. Don't pay attention to the campaign arrows, it is not 100% accurate.

      IslamMongolEmpireMap.jpg

      Despite all that, Ain Jalut did not stop the Ilkanate expansion in the Middle East, that would the Battle of Wadi al-Khazandar in 1299, were the Ilkhanid army under Ghazan Khan decisively defeated the Mamluks, capturing Damascus, and pursuing as far as Gaza. However he was also engaged in war with the Chagatai at the same time and in failing health, so he withdrew.
      Last edited by Salinator; 08 Feb 19, 18:44.
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      • #63
        Thank you for spending your time Salinator to write your comment. I like history.

        Some people argue that Baibars was a real person in charge and Saifuddeen Qutuz was just a sultan figure.

        You ll find Baibars' speech to an army too
        ​​​and not Qutuzs so many believe if was Baibars who killed emmisaries.

        However, every empire has growth period and decline period, peak and lowest level. Our civilisation is dynamic.

        Interesting thing is that when empire get ritch with food surplus, people become lathargic and lose willpower to survive, work, defend etc. Their territory is defined. Society in that situation will start to stagnate. ( see : mouse utopia experiment - 1968 )

        It happened to Khawarism and Abasids too. They had enough resources to crush mongols at start of their campaign, without bigger problem.

        Maybe first years would be problematic till they understand mongols tactics and strengths. Abasids and Khawarizmians had alot bigget population then mongols. But loving life too much instilled fear in their hearts.



        We knew frim start that war would happen



        The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said, “The Hour will not be established till you fight with the Khudh and the Kirman from among the non-Arabs. They will be of red faces, flat noses and small eyes; their faces will look like flat shields, and their shoes will be of hair.”

        حَدَّثَنِي يَحْيَى، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ، عَنْ مَعْمَرٍ، عَنْ هَمَّامٍ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ “‏ لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى تُقَاتِلُوا خُوزًا وَكَرْمَانَ مِنَ الأَعَاجِمِ، حُمْرَ الْوُجُوهِ، فُطْسَ الأُنُوفِ، صِغَارَ الأَعْيُنِ، وُجُوهُهُمُ الْمَجَانُّ الْمُطْرَقَةُ، نِعَالُهُمُ الشَّعَرُ ‏”‏‏.‏ تَابَعَهُ غَيْرُهُ عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّزَّاقِ‏.‏

        English reference:- Sahih Muslim : Vol. 4, Book 56, Hadith 788

        Arabic reference:-Sahih Muslim : Book 61, Hadith 3632

        Prophecy in Effect: The Mongols, under Hulagu Khan (grandson of Gengis Khan) invaded 659 years after Prophecised, he ransacked Baghdad, the capital city of the Muslims and the Abbasid dynasty in the year 1258 CE/659 AH (Hijri.) (see here) Muslims thereafter fought and continued to be defeated until the battle of Ayn Jaloot (1260CE/661 AH) whereafter the Mongol dynasty did not have its potent effect as it had before.
        One of the primary distinguishing signs of the Mongols was the animal fur they wore. And their red, flat faces:

        ^A picture of the emperor Kublai Khan with a red, wide (shield-like) face as Prophet Muhammed predicted.

        ^A picture of the emperor (Tomor Olziit Khaan) , one of the Mongols kings

        ^A picture of a Mongol warrior , see the beaver fur on his head.

        The Mongols came around 700 years after the death of God's Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him). They were extremely violent against the Muslims (so much so that this is one of the most famous conflicts known in Muslim history). The Mongols became Muslims later, but the harm they had caused as non Muslims was one of the reasons for the demise of the Muslim Golden Age.

        So its no surprise that it was mentioned specifically by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) more than any other conflict as one of the signs of the approaching of Judgment Day.





        Massive killing by mongols was like spreading of black death desease and it led muslims to believe that they were Gog and Magog creatures.

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        • #64
          If you are looking at something that happened 800 years ago for the Trigger for something that started within the last 50 years, I can't help you.
          I'm sticking to 1979.

          But, since the Mongols have been mentioned, I'll let them have a say in it -




          And yes, Close Captioning works on this one.


          Ready for round 2?
          "Why is the Rum gone?"

          -Captain Jack

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          • #65
            Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
            If you are looking at something that happened 800 years ago for the Trigger for something that started within the last 50 years, I can't help you.
            I'm sticking to 1979.

            But, since the Mongols have been mentioned, I'll let them have a say in it -




            And yes, Close Captioning works on this one.


            Ready for round 2?
            Why is sound so similar to western movies/games music ? This could be main theme of Gunslinger od Red Dead Redemption.

            What do you mean by round2 ?

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Daud View Post

              Why is sound so similar to western movies/games music ? This could be main theme of Gunslinger od Red Dead Redemption.
              Are you kidding?!?

              Mongolian folk-metal is one of he few new & unusual things I have seen in the music world this century. Those instruments are just bizarre.... a two-string instrument that can be strummed and plucked, sometimes both at the same time.... how weird is that?

              Regarding an earlier chat we had; You can't just assume that anything modern is solely Western. The people of Mongolia, China, Japan, India and Southeast Asia would have a serious problem with the blanket assumption than everything they have from hot water to Jet Airliners to comfy furniture are not their own.... and the places listed above comprise more than half the people alive on this world at this time.


              Originally posted by Daud View Post
              What do you mean by round2 ?
              I was trying to crack a joke. Confident people can laugh, even at themselves.... but I guess it wasn't a good one. Still, the lyrics are a hoot!
              "Why is the Rum gone?"

              -Captain Jack

              Comment


              • #67
                That's essentially correct. The Mongol invasion of the Middle East was the precipitous event that turned Islam from a rather vibrant and inclusive religion into a dour and vengeful one. Since then, the continued tribalism of the Arab world has exacerbated that tendency. Most of the worst of radical Islam are those who are stuck in what would otherwise be the middle class in Western culture. Most of the most radical Islamists are those that cannot and never will have the ability to rise to power but are intelligent enough, and educated enough to recognize that.
                These are the children of reasonably wealthy Arab families who went to Western universities where Leftist professors further radicalized them before they returned home. For much of radical Islam, religion is an excuse for what they do rather than a reason. It has been no different with Marx and Communism before them. There have been previous iterations of this as well.

                But, without the Mongols, Islam would have likely lacked the necessary streak for revenge it has in the Quran. Without that, radical Islam probably wouldn't exist. Instead, the same disgruntled people would have taken up fascism or communism as their mantle to rise to power.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post

                  Are you kidding?!?

                  Mongolian folk-metal is one of he few new & unusual things I have seen in the music world this century. Those instruments are just bizarre.... a two-string instrument that can be strummed and plucked, sometimes both at the same time.... how weird is that?

                  Regarding an earlier chat we had; You can't just assume that anything modern is solely Western. The people of Mongolia, China, Japan, India and Southeast Asia would have a serious problem with the blanket assumption than everything they have from hot water to Jet Airliners to comfy furniture are not their own.... and the places listed above comprise more than half the people alive on this world at this time.




                  I was trying to crack a joke. Confident people can laugh, even at themselves.... but I guess it wasn't a good one. Still, the lyrics are a hoot!

                  i just said that sound is simmilar to music in western movies and games. what is definition if modernity after all ? guys with long beards and hair singing uuuuiiiuiiiiuuuii ?

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                    That's essentially correct. The Mongol invasion of the Middle East was the precipitous event that turned Islam from a rather vibrant and inclusive religion into a dour and vengeful one. Since then, the continued tribalism of the Arab world has exacerbated that tendency. Most of the worst of radical Islam are those who are stuck in what would otherwise be the middle class in Western culture. Most of the most radical Islamists are those that cannot and never will have the ability to rise to power but are intelligent enough, and educated enough to recognize that.
                    These are the children of reasonably wealthy Arab families who went to Western universities where Leftist professors further radicalized them before they returned home. For much of radical Islam, religion is an excuse for what they do rather than a reason. It has been no different with Marx and Communism before them. There have been previous iterations of this as well.

                    But, without the Mongols, Islam would have likely lacked the necessary streak for revenge it has in the Quran. Without that, radical Islam probably wouldn't exist. Instead, the same disgruntled people would have taken up fascism or communism as their mantle to rise to power.

                    I dont think so. We analysed persons who are attracted to those ideas and found extreme similarities with thugs in west. I ll mention you few things:

                    - same asocial circles
                    - wearing military outfit mixed with islamic and portray theirs blingBling as dangerous

                    - because of media Islam is synonime for danger and dectruction and thats why is attracted to them. its a new trend

                    - if you want to badass today, have islamic beard and cap

                    - 25% of so called convertites are pure social trash

                    - they built their own alternative view of life where they re successful and someone, not losers as they are. in world of chaos, chaotic people are main figures

                    - social\ economic condition made them marginalized and they re outsiders in society

                    - maybe 20 years ago, new converts who were criminals turned their life into productive life without criminality but now, with khawarij ideology they can remain trash but believe that they re best believers. through that ideology their behaviour is justful.

                    - in europe some if them are drug dealers. they re sttracted to money and power alot.


                    - like other gang members, their social media profile is full with pictures of knives swords and pistols and some symbols. its a hybrid culture islam+thug life

                    - if you argue with them, its all about emotions, they re without arguments really, showing elements of psychopats

                    - they legalize violence through ideology. khawarij ideology dehumanize people. Same as some media dehumanize muslims today.

                    So, i dont think that they come from ritch families. Maybe small percent but bulk is from trash.

                    Those kind of people came inti existence even durring life of prophet a.s. . Later they made alot of filth, i mean ALOT.

                    Immagine a christians who killed, lets say Saint Peter, or some other apostle of Jesus.
                    Well, khawarij killed Ali, closest relative to Muhammad, and first child to follow a prophet.

                    And they re comming every 50 - 70 years maybe, like in waves. They re born in chaos ....got beaten... then again, and again.



                    Last edited by Daud; 09 Feb 19, 02:51.

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                    • #70
                      Analyze the leadership. The rank and file are essentially meaningless. The leadership of Islamic terror groups are almost uniformly university graduates of Western (mostly European) universities, have spent significant time abroad, come from families that are reasonably wealthy, and are disassociated from those holding power in their home countries.

                      It takes leadership to make these groups work. They're the important ones and they were all largely radicalized in the West by radical Leftist academics and their followers. Two of the most popular selling books in the Arab world are the works of Noam Chomsky and Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler.

                      Some semi-literate street thug isn't going to create and run a terrorist network. The guys that do have college degrees, and funding. They know how to organize and plan. And, they learned that from radical Leftist academics in Western universities.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                        A

                        It takes leadership to make these groups work. They're the important ones and they were all largely radicalized in the West by radical Leftist academics and their followers. Two of the most popular selling books in the Arab world are the works of Noam Chomsky and Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler.
                        Source please
                        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                          Source please
                          https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/467...wm-b-fankboner

                          https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9...overty-despair

                          https://cco.ndu.edu/News/Article/780...-and-new-tech/

                          https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/14/o...assa-myth.html

                          As for the books... Saw that myself in the Middle East.

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                          • #73
                            Load of old dingos kidneys your sources are all opinion pieces and none for example mentions Chomsky and I suspect I have spent far more time in the ME
                            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                            • #75
                              Good stuff!
                              and yes, anyone that has been keeping up with the situation should have known this already.


                              And before the usual excuses begin -


                              Last edited by The Exorcist; 10 Feb 19, 14:49.
                              "Why is the Rum gone?"

                              -Captain Jack

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