Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

So what was the trigger event for radical islam?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Daud
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post
    There was no trigger event for radical isl;am, as islam always was and is radical .
    You would lose that debate.

    Some people are not able to take off their ideological glasess and see things as they are. I believe you re one of those.
    Last edited by Daud; 20 Feb 19, 05:10.

    Leave a comment:


  • Daud
    replied
    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
    A good, thoughtful post. I cut a few bits here because I did not have anything to say about them and wanted to focus on certain things.
    (that is always the reason why I do that, unlike what some folks will say...)



    Yes, and I think they saw this coming. Years of frustration boiled over into the horrific 30 Years War.
    That one is worth looking into, some say that it was transformed the Germans into the rather uptight and combative people that they later became. A quarter of a century living in a place as bad as Pol Pot's Cambodia will do that.... and I base that on the fact that both places underwent a 30% overall reduction in population.



    I give the first one most credit, the Clerical Class in Turkey would have known all about that war and the Reformation, and would have done anything in their power to prevent that from happening in their part of the world.

    The second one is possible, there isn't all that much that is new when it comes to human behavior. However, the solution to half-educated people is to make them finish their education.

    No, its not that it was difficult. Even it seemed impossible to set up good type from that script, people would have found a way. The only thing that is needed is the free exchange of ideas. Nobody invented the automobile. A dozen different guys figured out how to make the various pieces work, and then another hundred guys tried all sorts of ways to it all together.
    Three or four of them got it right, and the rest copied them.



    A world of YES.



    And now, the next step for YOU ALL to take that ball and run with it.

    This isn't easy for me to say, but it has to be said; You people cannot continue to rely on the USA. (and you do, be it Europe or the Middle East or wherever).
    We aren't going to be around for much longer, not as we are now. In a very real sense, what the rest of the world has been thinking of as America is dying, already.

    But before your radical buddies start to celebrate, they ought to think about what that really means for them.
    In brief; start learning Chinese, or learn to actually stand on your own.
    There will be no other options... unless you think that trusting the Russians is a good idea...

    This goes beyond what we have been talking about. The only Arms Industry that is worthy of the name between the Arabian Sea and the Mediterranean is located in Iran. Instead of industry or even a good banking system the Gulf States build palaces and resorts that they don't want anyone from outside to get much use out of.
    Building a form of Capitalism where people can't profit from destruction would put any nation that came up with it in the cockpit of the world economy, and in the History Books.... is anyone working on that?
    Petro-dollars would enable any power making use of it to dominated Space, anyone interested?

    And on and on it goes.

    I'll have to stop there, its late and I have said too much already.
    Good luck, your generation is going to need it.

    We agree on 99% of things. I would like to add few things.

    My "buddies" which you mentioned are, as we would say, limited as balconies, narrow minded idiots that doestn even see how much west gave to mankind from 1700 onwards, start eith french mathematicians onward. Im not fan of alternative medicine, so i would rather have a an antibiotic then sticking pommes frites in my ass. I enjoy in things these people discovered
    ------------------

    About not relying on someone, yes, indeed, honor comes only from independence, its in our religious literature, but for some nations its easier to buy then to think
    ------------------

    printing was indeed harder, with latin you can use A... B...R.. symbols and combine whatever you want, with arabic is alot harder since letters are connected to eachother and you would need every word .

    -----------------


    Capitalism and free market was in middle east long before it was implemented in wewtern world, and its really easy to give some references.

    Ive found some adjustments to it in Islam, something like counter-inflation i would say. Upper class people would give (special-tax) 2.5% of money they stored ( not invested) for a longer time and give it to lowest class in order to improve their buying power and boost economy. And of course, interest rates would be eradicated and all bigger capital entities would have risk for every investment just like everyone does. They would not be able to earn money risk-free like eith usury.

    ---------------------


    As much as west hypocritical is, i find myself closer to christian world, and so different from chinese/indian and other pagan world. So if i must chose, its not even hard.
    Last edited by Daud; 20 Feb 19, 04:52.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hida Akechi
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post
    There was no trigger event for radical isl;am, as islam always was and is radical .
    How about an even "more radical islam", like we're experiencing now, instead, then?

    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    There was no trigger event for radical isl;am, as islam always was and is radical .

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    A good, thoughtful post. I cut a few bits here because I did not have anything to say about them and wanted to focus on certain things.
    (that is always the reason why I do that, unlike what some folks will say...)

    Originally posted by Daud View Post
    ...
    That fundaments led Lutheran states to progress alot faster then other world. Catholic church started to lose power over people.
    Yes, and I think they saw this coming. Years of frustration boiled over into the horrific 30 Years War.
    That one is worth looking into, some say that it was transformed the Germans into the rather uptight and combative people that they later became. A quarter of a century living in a place as bad as Pol Pot's Cambodia will do that.... and I base that on the fact that both places underwent a 30% overall reduction in population.

    Originally posted by Daud View Post
    Reasons for not allowing printing i think were:
    - clerics didnt want to lose power over illiterate folk, they would have problems with educated folk
    - ulama didnt want to deal with flood of half - educated scholars. Something like today google-scholars lets say. I think that they had fear such persons could instill debates and argumenting among folk which would led to disorder and trouble
    - arabic symbols and words have very different system from latin and it was alot harder templates/patterns to print.
    I give the first one most credit, the Clerical Class in Turkey would have known all about that war and the Reformation, and would have done anything in their power to prevent that from happening in their part of the world.

    The second one is possible, there isn't all that much that is new when it comes to human behavior. However, the solution to half-educated people is to make them finish their education.

    No, its not that it was difficult. Even it seemed impossible to set up good type from that script, people would have found a way. The only thing that is needed is the free exchange of ideas. Nobody invented the automobile. A dozen different guys figured out how to make the various pieces work, and then another hundred guys tried all sorts of ways to it all together.
    Three or four of them got it right, and the rest copied them.

    Originally posted by Daud View Post
    You cant read if you re illiterate, you deserted the Book, and all other knowledge.
    A world of YES.

    Originally posted by Daud View Post
    But... with internet introduced in that part of the world, people got hunger for knowledge and i can track maybe in last 35 years things are changing alot, shifting to better.
    I too am able to find many litterature nowdays and can speak 3 languages, and read arabic so we re blessed alot. All of our ancestors couldnt even dream to have this.
    And now, the next step for YOU ALL to take that ball and run with it.

    This isn't easy for me to say, but it has to be said; You people cannot continue to rely on the USA. (and you do, be it Europe or the Middle East or wherever).
    We aren't going to be around for much longer, not as we are now. In a very real sense, what the rest of the world has been thinking of as America is dying, already.

    But before your radical buddies start to celebrate, they ought to think about what that really means for them.
    In brief; start learning Chinese, or learn to actually stand on your own.
    There will be no other options... unless you think that trusting the Russians is a good idea...

    This goes beyond what we have been talking about. The only Arms Industry that is worthy of the name between the Arabian Sea and the Mediterranean is located in Iran. Instead of industry or even a good banking system the Gulf States build palaces and resorts that they don't want anyone from outside to get much use out of.
    Building a form of Capitalism where people can't profit from destruction would put any nation that came up with it in the cockpit of the world economy, and in the History Books.... is anyone working on that?
    Petro-dollars would enable any power making use of it to dominated Space, anyone interested?

    And on and on it goes.

    I'll have to stop there, its late and I have said too much already.
    Good luck, your generation is going to need it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Daud
    replied
    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post

    I keep telling you that the Middle East needs to come up with something new.
    Learn from the mistakes of the West, which ought to be pretty damned obvious by now, leave the bad behind and use the good stuff.

    Last I checked, there are almost as many people in the Arab world as there are in the USA, just imagine what they could come up with if the Government and the Clerics would just GET OUT OF THEIR WAY and let them be creative, build things, and make their own way in life.
    (that's what I mean by 'the good stuff')

    There is around 300 million arabs, but they re just 20% of muslims in the world. As Trump would say: " there is tremendous potential". When you mentioned clerics. From bad people, bad cleric will come and lead them. So they re part of the problem. People need to change.


    What ive found interesting is durring 15th century when Johann Gensfleisch / Gutenberg revolutionized book printing, idea was that all nation should be litterate and every person shoud read the Bible and personally seek way to a God.
    That fundaments led Lutheran states to progress alot faster then other world. Catholic church started to lose power over people.


    On the other side, in Ottoman Empire, only saphardic jews were allowed to print( in 1494 i think) !
    It took almost 300 years in till clerics and sultan allowed printing ! That thing was unforgivable ! We see even today results of such a bad politic.


    Reasons for not allowing printing i think were:
    - clerics didnt want to lose power over illiterate folk, they would have problems with educated folk
    - ulama didnt want to deal with flood of half - educated scholars. Something like today google-scholars lets say. I think that they had fear such persons could instill debates and argumenting among folk which would led to disorder and trouble
    - arabic symbols and words have very different system from latin and it was alot harder templates/patterns to print.



    I was really sad when i ve read that even in 19th century, more then 80% of Ottoman citizens were fully illiterate. Its not what it meant to be with first quranic revelation "read !"( Quran 96:1)

    You cant read if you re illiterate, you deserted the Book, and all other knowledge.




    But... with internet introduced in that part of the world, people got hunger for knowledge and i can track maybe in last 35 years things are changing alot, shifting to better.
    I too am able to find many litterature nowdays and can speak 3 languages, and read arabic so we re blessed alot. All of our ancestors couldnt even dream to have this.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by Daud View Post
    Have you noticed that almost all devastating ideologies are founded in Europe ?

    Starting with communism, faschism, national socialism, eugenics... etc.

    Arabs learned these things from colonial powers. Party of Abdel Nasser, Saddam Hussain, Assad family was Ba'th which had pan-arab-nationalistic root.

    Antisemitic stereotypes among muslims are the same europeans had.

    It sholdnt be strange that Europe produced such a big number if foreign fighters.
    I keep telling you that the Middle East needs to come up with something new.
    Learn from the mistakes of the West, which ought to be pretty damned obvious by now, leave the bad behind and use the good stuff.

    Last I checked, there are almost as many people in the Arab world as there are in the USA, just imagine what they could come up with if the Government and the Clerics would just GET OUT OF THEIR WAY and let them be creative, build things, and make their own way in life.
    (that's what I mean by 'the good stuff')




    Leave a comment:


  • Daud
    replied
    Have you noticed that almost all devastating ideologies are founded in Europe ?

    Starting with communism, faschism, national socialism, eugenics... etc.

    Arabs learned these things from colonial powers. Party of Abdel Nasser, Saddam Hussain, Assad family was Ba'th which had pan-arab-nationalistic root.

    Antisemitic stereotypes among muslims are the same europeans had.

    It sholdnt be strange that Europe produced such a big number if foreign fighters.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Good stuff!
    and yes, anyone that has been keeping up with the situation should have known this already.


    And before the usual excuses begin -


    Last edited by The Exorcist; 10 Feb 19, 14:49.

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Well on the book issue alone:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...9/turkey.books

    https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Me...-Jordan-437175

    https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/q...slim-countries

    http://www.crethiplethi.com/mein-kam.../english/2009/

    Leave a comment:


  • MarkV
    replied
    Load of old dingos kidneys your sources are all opinion pieces and none for example mentions Chomsky and I suspect I have spent far more time in the ME

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by MarkV View Post

    Source please
    https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/467...wm-b-fankboner

    https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9...overty-despair

    https://cco.ndu.edu/News/Article/780...-and-new-tech/

    https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/14/o...assa-myth.html

    As for the books... Saw that myself in the Middle East.

    Leave a comment:


  • MarkV
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    A

    It takes leadership to make these groups work. They're the important ones and they were all largely radicalized in the West by radical Leftist academics and their followers. Two of the most popular selling books in the Arab world are the works of Noam Chomsky and Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler.
    Source please

    Leave a comment:


  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    Analyze the leadership. The rank and file are essentially meaningless. The leadership of Islamic terror groups are almost uniformly university graduates of Western (mostly European) universities, have spent significant time abroad, come from families that are reasonably wealthy, and are disassociated from those holding power in their home countries.

    It takes leadership to make these groups work. They're the important ones and they were all largely radicalized in the West by radical Leftist academics and their followers. Two of the most popular selling books in the Arab world are the works of Noam Chomsky and Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler.

    Some semi-literate street thug isn't going to create and run a terrorist network. The guys that do have college degrees, and funding. They know how to organize and plan. And, they learned that from radical Leftist academics in Western universities.

    Leave a comment:


  • Daud
    replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    That's essentially correct. The Mongol invasion of the Middle East was the precipitous event that turned Islam from a rather vibrant and inclusive religion into a dour and vengeful one. Since then, the continued tribalism of the Arab world has exacerbated that tendency. Most of the worst of radical Islam are those who are stuck in what would otherwise be the middle class in Western culture. Most of the most radical Islamists are those that cannot and never will have the ability to rise to power but are intelligent enough, and educated enough to recognize that.
    These are the children of reasonably wealthy Arab families who went to Western universities where Leftist professors further radicalized them before they returned home. For much of radical Islam, religion is an excuse for what they do rather than a reason. It has been no different with Marx and Communism before them. There have been previous iterations of this as well.

    But, without the Mongols, Islam would have likely lacked the necessary streak for revenge it has in the Quran. Without that, radical Islam probably wouldn't exist. Instead, the same disgruntled people would have taken up fascism or communism as their mantle to rise to power.

    I dont think so. We analysed persons who are attracted to those ideas and found extreme similarities with thugs in west. I ll mention you few things:

    - same asocial circles
    - wearing military outfit mixed with islamic and portray theirs blingBling as dangerous

    - because of media Islam is synonime for danger and dectruction and thats why is attracted to them. its a new trend

    - if you want to badass today, have islamic beard and cap

    - 25% of so called convertites are pure social trash

    - they built their own alternative view of life where they re successful and someone, not losers as they are. in world of chaos, chaotic people are main figures

    - social\ economic condition made them marginalized and they re outsiders in society

    - maybe 20 years ago, new converts who were criminals turned their life into productive life without criminality but now, with khawarij ideology they can remain trash but believe that they re best believers. through that ideology their behaviour is justful.

    - in europe some if them are drug dealers. they re sttracted to money and power alot.


    - like other gang members, their social media profile is full with pictures of knives swords and pistols and some symbols. its a hybrid culture islam+thug life

    - if you argue with them, its all about emotions, they re without arguments really, showing elements of psychopats

    - they legalize violence through ideology. khawarij ideology dehumanize people. Same as some media dehumanize muslims today.

    So, i dont think that they come from ritch families. Maybe small percent but bulk is from trash.

    Those kind of people came inti existence even durring life of prophet a.s. . Later they made alot of filth, i mean ALOT.

    Immagine a christians who killed, lets say Saint Peter, or some other apostle of Jesus.
    Well, khawarij killed Ali, closest relative to Muhammad, and first child to follow a prophet.

    And they re comming every 50 - 70 years maybe, like in waves. They re born in chaos ....got beaten... then again, and again.



    Last edited by Daud; 09 Feb 19, 02:51.

    Leave a comment:

Latest Topics

Collapse

Working...
X