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So what was the trigger event for radical islam?

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  • Daud
    replied
    Originally posted by nastle View Post

    you are oversimplyfying this and mixing historical evidence with pious anecdotes


    arabs storming into persia syria levant egypt was not defensive by any means , maybe you can justify the campaigns against the meccan pagans as defensive but nothing beyond that

    ->

    These preemptive attack resulted in the creation of a buffer zone or no man's land in south-eastern Anatolia and Armenia, which would eventually evolve into the al-'Awasim. It was exactly what Umar wanted,[3] as he is quoted saying
    I wish there was a wall of fire between us and the Romans, so that nor we can cross into their land neither they could in ours ”"

    "I wish"

    Leave a comment:


  • nastle
    replied
    . From earliest days, if that community didnt fight they would be eaten, from pagans, bysantines or persians. It was simple as that. Expand or die.
    I cant really find you refference now because im working, but in hadith collection you can find reasons and preparation for expedition Tabuk.
    you are oversimplyfying this and mixing historical evidence with pious anecdotes

    Literally , they knocked at others doors calling to arms and person that was in house thought bysantines came at the door.

    See what happened to islamic world when they were not strong enough and protective. They were colonised and plundered.
    arabs storming into persia syria levant egypt was not defensive by any means , maybe you can justify the campaigns against the meccan pagans as defensive but nothing beyond that

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by MarkV View Post
    ....
    It's complex and takes many forms and some, like state capitalism, are even practised by 'socialist' and communist regimes.
    Only if you want to make it that way in order to confuse the issue.... a European specialty these days.

    What is so hard about respecting other people's property rights?
    Why support a system of Government that views the people under it's power as a source of wealth that has to be exploited?
    What does this have to do with the thread?

    I was just finishing my reply to specific questions from one poster here. An A-B conversation, in other words, why must you butt in like that?

    Leave a comment:


  • MarkV
    replied
    Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post

    Capitalism is simply the freedom to exchange goods in a marketplace at a mutually agreeable rate, when you get down to basics.
    .
    No it isn't it's not that simple. What you describe is simple market economics such as existed in pre industrial societies like stone age New Guinea and still exists everywhere. . Capitalism is all about ownership and it's complex and difficult to get ones mind around. It's complex and takes many forms and some, like state capitalism, are even practised by 'socialist' and communist regimes.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by Daud View Post
    -----------------


    Capitalism and free market was in middle east long before it was implemented in wewtern world, and its really easy to give some references.

    Ive found some adjustments to it in Islam, something like counter-inflation i would say. Upper class people would give (special-tax) 2.5% of money they stored ( not invested) for a longer time and give it to lowest class in order to improve their buying power and boost economy. And of course, interest rates would be eradicated and all bigger capital entities would have risk for every investment just like everyone does. They would not be able to earn money risk-free like eith usury.

    ---------------------
    Capitalism is simply the freedom to exchange goods in a marketplace at a mutually agreeable rate, when you get down to basics.
    What is strangling the world today is a corrupt bureaucracy that has a compulsion to control everything.

    Without risk, there can be no progress. But as far as usury goes, there is only one sort of lender that can survive lending money without taking some form of fees; the Government.
    I know it is weird of me to say so, but perhaps there is one industry that should be nationalized; the Banks.

    The Govt has the courts, the police, all tax records, so for them the risk is minimal. And it would be preforming an essential service. Sure, it might be concentrating too much power in the hands of the rulers, but considering all the abuses that Bankers have always been famous for, this could be the key to something that really works.

    Maybe this is what Khaddafi was thinking about.
    Maybe that's why they butchered him.

    it would be a dangerous experiment, but so was Democracy.
    VERY dangerous.... as they say "Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a Bank, and he can rob the world."

    But, if you want interest-free loans, I don't see any other way.

    Leave a comment:


  • MarkV
    replied
    Originally posted by Daud View Post


    Nope. Just seen some funny text on net about hemorrhoid threatment with potatos , so i guess those people sticking pommes frites in anus in order to heal themselves.

    i just said its better to have drugs instead.
    Bits of RAW potato have been used in folk remedies for centuries. They are supposed to draw the evil humours out or some such twaddle. There may be a placebo effect.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Originally posted by Daud View Post
    Nope. Just seen some funny text on net about hemorrhoid threatment with potatos , so i guess those people sticking pommes frites in anus in order to heal themselves.

    i just said its better to have drugs instead.
    I see, learn something new every day I guess

    Leave a comment:


  • Daud
    replied
    G David Bock I understand the problems you may have but in order for you to understand really those things you need to get in muslim shoes for a moment.
    Some stuff you mentioned have general context and some historical. For example ayat 9:29 when fight against Ghassanides was ordered. They were arabs who were in Bysantine empire.

    Now, i would say in last 70 years only , whole world took little bit pacifist approach, till 1960 it was pretty expansionist , lets be real.

    So maybe from your side, you see Islam as violent ( maybe you see only violent side) but for me , as a muslim, i see it perfectly logical. From earliest days, if that community didnt fight they would be eaten, from pagans, bysantines or persians. It was simple as that. Expand or die.
    I cant really find you refference now because im working, but in hadith collection you can find reasons and preparation for expedition Tabuk.
    Literally , they knocked at others doors calling to arms and person that was in house thought bysantines came at the door.

    See what happened to islamic world when they were not strong enough and protective. They were colonised and plundered.

    And at least those who give 650 billion $ in a year for a military should understand it. I just cant find that some islamic land killed its own people to invoke a war with someone.

    ---------------------

    ideological difference

    Yes, there is some violence in Islam, its not pacifist religion like Jehovahs preaching but its not opposite too. And from the philosophical side it doesnt make him truth or false.

    Islam claim for itself that its truth, challanges everyone to think and reason, to find a problem or contradiction in Quran.

    So if a prophet "fights" till his death, he doesnt fight against people, against nation, but for people.
    I ll give you super example:

    In 1920s you had prohibition period. Alcohol was fully forbidden in few states becauese many problems came. Women lobbied for such law because men were too violent inside and outside house, corruption and disaster was in society.

    See:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proh..._United_States

    Muhammad fought till alcohol was fully rejected in society. Sometimes with his words but sometimes he couldnt without violence. He won, at the end he will be victorious.
    If someone allows alcohol, prophet see it as a corruption and would fight.


    even Medias and propaganda machinery fight, its just not armed conflict. Violence is just part of conflict.

    His "war" is for order in this life and for human souls, not against mankind. I challenge everyone to show if Muhammad was against humans or some people.
    He wasnt interested in someones gold or land. That man died with scars on his back, having no proper bed, but was "president" of his people.

    فَبِمَا رَحۡمَةٖ مِّنَ ٱللَّهِ لِنتَ لَهُمۡۖ وَلَوۡ كُنتَ فَظًّا غَلِيظَ ٱلۡقَلۡبِ لَٱنفَضُّواْ مِنۡ حَوۡلِكَۖ فَٱعۡفُ عَنۡهُمۡ وَٱسۡتَغۡفِرۡ لَهُمۡ وَشَاوِرۡهُمۡ فِي ٱلۡأَمۡرِۖ فَإِذَا عَزَمۡتَ فَتَوَكَّلۡ عَلَى ٱللَّهِۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ يُحِبُّ ٱلۡمُتَوَكِّلِينَ


    So by mercy from Allah, [O Muhammad], you were lenient with them. And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult them in the matter. And when you have decided, then rely upon Allah . Indeed, Allah loves those who rely [upon Him].

    -Sure Āl ʿImrān, Vers 159

    this is why he won at the end

    On the other side, i ll use neo liberalism as an example. Liberalism never claimed that its was only and pure truth, and never claimed that there isnt a room for some improvements. Never claim that some religion is false or true and accept pretty everything.
    ----------------------


    Two very important points


    transgression is forbidden:

    وَقَٰتِلُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ ٱلَّذِينَ يُقَٰتِلُونَكُمۡ وَلَا تَعۡتَدُوٓاْۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلۡمُعۡتَدِينَ


    Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.
    //////

    .And fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not commit aggression; God does not love the aggressors.

    -Sure Al-Baqarah, Vers 190


    We shouldnt be aggressors ! If someone threaten us, we can act pre emptive if threaten.


    إِلَّا ٱلَّذِينَ يَصِلُونَ إِلَىٰ قَوۡمِۭ بَيۡنَكُمۡ وَبَيۡنَهُم مِّيثَٰقٌ أَوۡ جَآءُوكُمۡ حَصِرَتۡ صُدُورُهُمۡ أَن يُقَٰتِلُوكُمۡ أَوۡ يُقَٰتِلُواْ قَوۡمَهُمۡۚ وَلَوۡ شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ لَسَلَّطَهُمۡ عَلَيۡكُمۡ فَلَقَٰتَلُوكُمۡۚ فَإِنِ ٱعۡتَزَلُوكُمۡ فَلَمۡ يُقَٰتِلُوكُمۡ وَأَلۡقَوۡاْ إِلَيۡكُمُ ٱلسَّلَمَ فَمَا جَعَلَ ٱللَّهُ لَكُمۡ عَلَيۡهِمۡ سَبِيلٗا


    Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.

    -Sure An-Nisāʾ, Vers 90


    peace treaty must be respected:

    (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. - 9:4


    There is many more references, my time is limited to find more.

    Today we have UN conventions and peace treaties and they should be respected.



    "Jihad" today is too corrupt and too much involved in worldly power and interest and thats why there isnt any progress in it. Just chaos made by insane people
    Last edited by Daud; 22 Feb 19, 00:43.

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  • G David Bock
    replied
    There is a Catch 22 here in that what was said to Muhammad by Allah can't be changed and the last of the revelations is very anti non-Muslim. The Koran is not arranged in order of revelation, but roughly longest to shortest of the chapters/Surah. Any later revelation that contradicts an earlier one is the one that was to apply, abrogation. Here's a link to the chronological order of the Koran;
    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Chronologi...f_the_Qur%27an

    Some of the relating passages of the Koran, addressing the mandate of (physical)Jihad(Holy War) and rewards for engaging in such, etc.;

    [2.154] And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.
    [2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.
    [4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.
    [4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.
    [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
    [5.32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
    [5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
    [8.38] Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.
    [8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
    [8.60] And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
    [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
    [9.36] Surely the number of months with Allah is twelve months in Allah's ordinance since the day when He created the heavens and the earth, of these four being sacred; that is the right reckoning; therefore be not unjust to yourselves regarding them, and fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
    [33.26] And He drove down those of the followers of the Book who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive another part.
    [33.27] And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things.
    [47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
    [47.5] He will guide them and improve their condition.
    [47.6] And cause them to enter the garden which He has made known to them.
    http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html

    https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...ad-gwot/page64

    Leave a comment:


  • G David Bock
    replied
    The Muslims performing the so-called "terrorist" actions refer to what they do as Jihad, and anyone being honest about Islam would acknowledge that there are different forms of Jihad. These Islamists/Jihadists view themselves as fundamentalists of Islam and true followers Muhammad's example and command;

    "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah."

    From;
    Book 001, Number 0033:
    It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

    http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religiou...t.php#001.0033

    One may find Numbers 0030, 0031, 0032 of related interest as well.
    https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...ad-gwot/page64

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  • Daud
    replied
    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

    Are you using some translation engine by chance ?

    While fascinating no doubt, this doesn't make a lot of sense ?



    Nope. Just seen some funny text on net about hemorrhoid threatment with potatos , so i guess those people sticking pommes frites in anus in order to heal themselves.

    i just said its better to have drugs instead.

    Leave a comment:


  • Daud
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post
    I see things as they are : I see adult Muslims forcing ,in the name of the Islam ,children to behead other people, amongst the total indifference of the other Muslims .

    Ive seen a man who hit another one with a car.
    Its time that we forbid cars fully.



    you re all over the place. You met vietnamese i guess
    Attached Files

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  • MarkV
    replied
    Originally posted by ljadw View Post
    I see things as they are : I see adult Muslims forcing ,in the name of the Islam ,children to behead other people, amongst the total indifference of the other Muslims .
    No tunnel vision - you missed "a few" adult etc

    Leave a comment:


  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Originally posted by Daud View Post
    My "buddies" which you mentioned are, as we would say, limited as balconies, narrow minded idiots that doestn even see how much west gave to mankind from 1700 onwards, start eith french mathematicians onward. Im not fan of alternative medicine, so i would rather have a an antibiotic then sticking pommes frites in my ass.
    Are you using some translation engine by chance ?

    While fascinating no doubt, this doesn't make a lot of sense ?



    Leave a comment:


  • ljadw
    replied
    I see things as they are : I see adult Muslims forcing ,in the name of the Islam ,children to behead other people, amongst the total indifference of the other Muslims .

    Leave a comment:

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