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So what was the trigger event for radical islam?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
    Only The Turkish Constitution stands out in the middle east as providing equality among man.

    Israel and Saudi need a legit Constitution.

    Facts always defeat the distortions created by supremacist Christians, Muslims and Jews of the world.
    one that is being abrogated by that arrogant tyrant erdogan?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
      What kicked off the current wave of bloodshed?
      Demographic boom in the Middle East. Just like the demographic boom in Europe kicked off WWI, Russian Revolution and WWII.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by nastle View Post

        one that is being abrogated by that arrogant tyrant erdogan?
        Erdogan may be controversial. What we know is the foundation of Turkey is based on equality among man. The USA has gone through controversial leaders such as Mr Clinton and Dick Nixon. But its the foundation of the USA that has been able to hold up.
        Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM

        Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

        George S Patton

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
          Demographic boom in the Middle East. Just like the demographic boom in Europe kicked off WWI, Russian Revolution and WWII.
          That was certainly a factor in the anti war protest during the Vietnam war and is a necessary part of the calculus of any cultural upheaval. The central question remains regarding focus. While the internal and external conflicts of Islam were somewhat quiet for a period after WWII, if you ignore Israeli wars, there was a tipping point beginning with the Iranian revolution after which it returns to the traditional pattern of violent expansionism. What was the trigger or triggers and why does it look so different than the upheavals in the West when the baby boomers were coming of age?
          We hunt the hunters

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          • #35
            Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post

            That was certainly a factor in the anti war protest during the Vietnam war and is a necessary part of the calculus of any cultural upheaval. The central question remains regarding focus. While the internal and external conflicts of Islam were somewhat quiet for a period after WWII, if you ignore Israeli wars, there was a tipping point beginning with the Iranian revolution after which it returns to the traditional pattern of violent expansionism. What was the trigger or triggers and why does it look so different than the upheavals in the West when the baby boomers were coming of age?
            European population boom happened during 19th and 20th century. According to Wiki between Napoleonic wars and WW1 about 60 million people emigrated. For example between 1800 and 1900 Finnish population tripled from one million to three million. At the same time some 300 000 people emigrated to USA(mostly at the end of the period). After WW2 there was a period of urbanisation in Finland(changing from agricultural to an industrialised society), which saw massive migration to cities, as well as hundreds of thousands of people moving to Sweden. Similar population boom only happened in developing countries after WW2.

            It really isn't any different. Well, except that that powers that be in Europe had abandoned religion a long time ago, whereas in moslem majority countries they still hold sway. Europeans also had the luxury of migrating to three different continents(if you count Australia as one)...compared to our "violent expansion" the current migrant crisis is a drop in the ocean.

            One should take note that most of Islamic terror is directed against their own subjects to keep them in line; attacks against West are more of media publicity than anything else.
            Last edited by Karri; 27 Sep 18, 11:41.
            Wisdom is personal

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post

              Erdogan may be controversial. What we know is the foundation of Turkey is based on equality among man. The USA has gone through controversial leaders such as Mr Clinton and Dick Nixon. But its the foundation of the USA that has been able to hold up.
              he is shaking its foundation to its core

              if we strict kemalist then I have no problem but this guy sees himself as a lattar day sultan

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              • #37
                The Islamic conquests of the Middle East and Africa have killed over 270 million people who had rejected Islam and had to be killed. We tend to forget many traditionally Islamic countries are not traditional at all and had to be converted by slaughter. This supports the hypothesis that Islamic extremism is in the Quran. If anything, Islam of today is less violent and brutal than centuries ago. The founding father of modern Turkey, Mustafa Kemal, himself a Muslim, rejected orthodox Islam as barbaric and preventing normal development of the country. He imposed severe punishment, including prison sentences, for spreading Islamic orthodoxy in the country.

                "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
                --Frederick II, King of Prussia

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by nastle View Post

                  there is no radical islam, even the sufi sunni orders savagely fought the russians in the dagestan region in the 17th century
                  islam has been attacking raiding and slaving christians for centuries esp the russians
                  islam itself is no more savage than any of the abrahamic faiths
                  its the people of middle east that are more savage than their neighbors and thats the root of the problem
                  our socalled conservatives are so concerned with russian menace while the real menace are the muslim countries + india+ china + japan
                  We and russians both have common enemies , those who truly are against islam should wholeheartedly support russians and push for limiting immigration in europe
                  we should also fully support israel's expansion at the expense of its neighbors , more european jewish immigration there but we should not send our boys to die for the security of the jewish state in fact it should be the other way round
                  |Good post.
                  communists<
                  Remember, however, that from 1948-88, SOVI|ET R|USS|IA was the supposed mastermind behind "all Worldwide Communists, and that we backed Sadamn Hussien, etc., because that BRAND OF WARLORD was seen asw seen as secular Muslims "tough on Commies..'

                  Be Cautious....
                  The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by nastle View Post

                    i cannot think of any decent person who does not HATE roman empire and all its evils

                    i do agree with latter part of your post though, Muhammad did style himself as an old testament prophet.But how can you defend the shocking barbarity of the old testement ?


                    I'm pro-israel precisely because it is a secular jewish state founded by primarily EUROPEAN jews and serves as an outpost of european civilization in the middle east , if israel would follow the ways of the old testement prophets then they would look like a jewish version of isis
                    I also support israel as they are the natural enemies of arabs ( not neccessarily muslims ), christian and secular arabs are just as bad as religious muslim arabs
                    I believe that Israel is one of the very few countries that was founded by an 'almost equivlent population exchange'.
                    The willingness of the Arab Islamic world to rob ,then ship out their ancient Jewish communities even before the foundation of Israel shows that they were birds kept in a gilded cage. I pointed out to a Syrian that the 40,000 Moslems expelled from the Golan Heights was four fifths of the 50,000 Jews expelled form Syria after 1945.
                    His response was that the Syrian Jews 'went to France and Brooklyn' - he did acknowledge that the leaving was not voluntary.
                    The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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                    • #40
                      i believe that the trigger event of the present war by muslims against the west was started during the First desert storm. I watched a interview with al qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden, and he stated that having non muslim troops in saudi arabia was an insult to muslims that he could not accept .



                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by bill shack View Post
                        i believe that the trigger event of the present war by muslims against the west was started during the First desert storm. I watched a interview with al qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden, and he stated that having non muslim troops in saudi arabia was an insult to muslims that he could not accept .



                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden
                        Various Islamic groups were attacking Western targets throughout the 80s.
                        It has ever been thus.
                        "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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                        • #42
                          There never was a single trigger event. As always it's been a developing situtation, and a chain of contingent factors.

                          But choosing a short answer: 1990's Algeria.

                          Ideologically political Islams, as has been radicalised in the least decades, has a bunch of founding figures, ideologues writing and publishing, beginning already before WWII. 1930's Egypt was a the place for it.

                          But it's not as if they had that many takers then.

                          What then happened after WWII was decolonization + nationalist revolutions in varioius Arab countries. These revolutions were Arab nationalist, secular but not democratic.

                          Two things then opened the way for radical Islamism as potential credible political alternative to the powers-that-be. First of all that the Arab nationalist governments never opened themselves to real forms of participatory politics. They remained autocracies. (I.e. no democracy, and western policies was fine with that, mostly concluding the Mid East was not "ready" for democracy.)

                          That would probably have worked more or less had they just delivered a better life for people generally. (The big Selling Point currently of Chinese politics, and sorta kinda for Putinism in Russia.) I.e. the nationalist revolutions produced government-by-generals who promised a bright future, invested in general education for people, secular reform etc., and then (unless there was oil) failed to provide the promised better life.

                          The non-petro Arab world has been moving crab-wise economically, and consequently in whether it can offer people a better life, for decades. While east Asia has taken off an caught up the west etc.

                          That crab-wise move provided a discontent looking for political alternatives. And if it wasn't going to be revolutionary Marxism, there was the option of political Islam.

                          The starter probably really was Algeria. The Islamists won the general election in 1992, and promptly were thwarted by a military coup and continued rule-by-general. Which could also be clearly seen to be supported by the west. And then there was The Mother Of Islamist Civil Wars... Veteran fighters from it has turned up pretty much everywhere the crap has hit the fan since, from Bosnia to Afghanistan to Iraq to Syria.

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                          • #43
                            A complex answer that I need to keep short; 1979.

                            The combination of Iran's huge backward step into the 7th century, the terrorist occupation of Mecca, and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was a triple-whammy that made everyone in the world sit up and take notice, especially the muslims.
                            People were scared over there, and the Holier than Thou Religious Militants took advantage of it.

                            Progress in the Muddle East was reversed, and it has all been downhill ever since.
                            "Why is the Rum gone?"

                            -Captain Jack

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                              A complex answer that I need to keep short; 1979.

                              The combination of Iran's huge backward step into the 7th century, the terrorist occupation of Mecca, and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was a triple-whammy that made everyone in the world sit up and take notice, especially the muslims.
                              People were scared over there, and the Holier than Thou Religious Militants took advantage of it.

                              Progress in the Muddle East was reversed, and it has all been downhill ever since.
                              You nailed it. The next trigger will be when Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei dies. When Khamenei dies, the Islamic Republic will face an unprecedented crisis.
                              "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

                              "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by At ease View Post
                                So what was the trigger event for radical islam?

                                The Koran.
                                YUP!
                                Islam has been "radical" ever since Mohammad grabbed a sword and led his followers in conquest and forced conversions.
                                Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
                                TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                                Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *

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