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30k Syrians on Turkeys border

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

    Although marching *to war* is rarely efficient - if it's a serious war it'll march to you
    Spoken like a true Belgian.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
      Tying this back into Syria and all those laughably labeled cowards, we end up with a situation for which it is hard to see where these men should fight. Who should they die for - the dictator Assad, or the bloody psychopaths of IS? How does that make their lives any better if they are opposed to both?
      That's kind of my point. If all if these millions of young men are opposed to both IS and Assad then why isn't the FSA or some other secular force several million men stronger than it is? You brought up the founding fathers. They stood up to their government and overthrew it to replace it with one that better represented their ideals. They made their country what they wanted it to be. That's what I'm talking about. Not fighting for the state or lines on a map but fighting to make your home the way you want it. To be able to live the way you want without being forced to give up your home and property. If all those men had stayed and fought to make Syria something better than both Assad and IS the situation on the ground would look very different. You can only have freedom if the people choose to stand and fight for it. In this case when threatened by the forces of the tyrannical state and a group of foreign religious nuts, the people didn't fight. They ran to the promise of a free ride in Europe and took any chance of improving Syria with them.
      "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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      • #48
        Originally posted by sebfrench76 View Post
        Since you are extremely productive ,hard for me to avoid a specific area .
        You're everywhere ,omnipresent like J.C
        Well old friend, you should either get busy and post more OPs or put me on your ignore list.
        I visit several news sights from around the world each and everyday, if I see something I believe will stimulate conversation I share it.
        Regretfully that offends you.
        Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

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        • #49
          If i was offended ,i had forget about the smiley.
          You're free , and plus ,it makes my day , kindda gym .
          That rug really tied the room together

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          • #50
            Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
            That's kind of my point. If all if these millions of young men are opposed to both IS and Assad then why isn't the FSA or some other secular force several million men stronger than it is?
            Probably because the FSA and such "secular" groups represent a tiny minority within the Syrian conflict, and would probably not even be the first choice of those fleeing even if they did want to fight.

            Assad has the backing of most Syrians. The FSA is losing. Why should they die for a losing group they don't really believe in?

            You brought up the founding fathers. They stood up to their government and overthrew it to replace it with one that better represented their ideals. They made their country what they wanted it to be. That's what I'm talking about. Not fighting for the state or lines on a map but fighting to make your home the way you want it.
            And my home right now is Texas and not California; America, and not Poland. My home is wherever I want to call my home, not what someone else believes it should be.

            And I do help make my home the way I want it - but I don't work to make my place of birth the way I want it since I don't live there anymore, nor do I want to.

            To be able to live the way you want without being forced to give up your home and property. If all those men had stayed and fought to make Syria something better than both Assad and IS the situation on the ground would look very different.
            Doubtful. How many of those men wouldn't favor ISIS or Assad over the small hodgepodge of the "FSA"?

            You can only have freedom if the people choose to stand and fight for it. In this case when threatened by the forces of the tyrannical state and a group of foreign religious nuts, the people didn't fight. They ran to the promise of a free ride in Europe and took any chance of improving Syria with them.
            Maybe because they saw Syria was offering them nothing, and would continue offering them nothing?

            We can talk hypotheticals, but you're not going to find many optimistic folks who believe those Syrian men fighting against ISIS and Assad are going to win some glorious victory on their own.

            Going back to the United States, only a fraction of Americans bore arms in the revolution. Hell, only a minority even supported the revolutionaries - making them cowards as well. That doesn't even include all those cowardly women and children who could have been fighting as well. And so many of the cowardly immigrants who came here afterwards were fleeing the European wars and the intolerable conditions at home, when they could have remained there and fought to improve it.

            America is a nation of cowards, if we are going to be consistent in our logic. And forgive me, but I don't think you want to imply as such. I know I wouldn't. But calling all those people who fled Syria cowards relies on a line of reasoning that can come back and bite other groups as well.

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            • #51
              But, what does that say of the FSA?
              "We have no white flag."

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                Probably because the FSA and such "secular" groups represent a tiny minority within the Syrian conflict, and would probably not even be the first choice of those fleeing even if they did want to fight.

                Assad has the backing of most Syrians. The FSA is losing. Why should they die for a losing group they don't really believe in?
                Which just reinforces my point. If they did support the FSA it wouldn't be an irrelevant minority with a few million more followers. By the same token if they support Assad then fight for him and end the war faster. If they support neither then they are Islamist and definitely shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a civilized country. You can't look at it through the lense of today either. The situation would be vastly different if all these men had lined up behind who they believe in years ago. Arguably Assad or someone else would have won by now.
                "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
                  Which just reinforces my point. If they did support the FSA it wouldn't be an irrelevant minority with a few million more followers. By the same token if they support Assad then fight for him and end the war faster. If they support neither then they are Islamist and definitely shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a civilized country. You can't look at it through the lense of today either. The situation would be vastly different if all these men had lined up behind who they believe in years ago. Arguably Assad or someone else would have won by now.
                  If.

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                  • #54
                    Of course if but that's really all we can talk about isn't it? This whole discussion is about the consequet of people's actions and the alternatives. The whole discussion is "if."
                    "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
                      Of course if but that's really all we can talk about isn't it? This whole discussion is about the consequet of people's actions and the alternatives. The whole discussion is "if."
                      Indeed. But I don't call people cowards for responding to what is, rather than what could be, the situation on the ground. After all, maybe if the FSA was better organized and less a western fantasy than these men and women may have changed their minds. If is a powerful qualifier, and the hypothetical game makes any argument seem plausible.

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                      • #56
                        Guys,there is no FSA any more.



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                        Fortess fortuan adiuvat

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                          Indeed. But I don't call people cowards for responding to what is, rather than what could be, the situation on the ground. After all, maybe if the FSA was better organized and less a western fantasy than these men and women may have changed their minds. If is a powerful qualifier, and the hypothetical game makes any argument seem plausible.
                          I guess that's where our views differ. You see them as responding to what is and I see them as being responsible for causing what is. That's why I suggested what they should have done and could still do differently in order to prevent or change what is. They let it get to this point and didnt stand up to stop it. They certainly have the numbers to. Instead they come running to Europe and expect German taxpayers to shoulder the burden of the problem they created and refuse to solve. So yes I will absolutely judge them.
                          "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
                            I guess that's where our views differ. You see them as responding to what is and I see them as being responsible for causing what is. That's why I suggested what they should have done and could still do differently in order to prevent or change what is. They let it get to this point and didnt stand up to stop it. They certainly have the numbers to. Instead they come running to Europe and expect German taxpayers to shoulder the burden of the problem they created and refuse to solve. So yes I will absolutely judge them.
                            Most of those who fled are in Turkey, not Germany, and plenty of them are women and children whom are, for some reason, not expected to fight.

                            But even in a hypothetical where they all were still in Syria fighting for their side of choice, that still doesn't guarantee victory. Are they cowards for not dying for a lost cause? Are they cowards for not fighting the brave soldiers of ISIS who stood up for their beliefs and will fight for what they want Syria to become?

                            And let's just remove the war entirely: are immigrants cowards for trying to move someplace better rather than staying home and improving their place of birth?

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                              Most of those who fled are in Turkey, not Germany, and plenty of them are women and children whom are, for some reason, not expected to fight.
                              I specified in the very beginning I was only talking about military age males, who do make up a sizable number of the "refugees." I never referred to women, children, the elderly, etc.

                              Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                              And let's just remove the war entirely: are immigrants cowards for trying to move someplace better rather than staying home and improving their place of birth?
                              I never said that. I have my own views about economic migrants but I never called them cowards. There's also a big difference between a skilled professional moving to another county looking for work and an unskilled person moving to another country because they've been told they'll get a free ride there. One is an immigrant, the the is a parasite. That isn't too say immigrants are the only ones guilty of that. There's plenty of natives all over the world taking advantage of their country's welfare system and contributing nothing society and they're just as bad. That's why immigration laws and standards exist. They're supposed to filter out the people who will make your country better by joining it from the people who will be a drain on it.
                              "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                                Why would you fight for a place just because you were born there?
                                It is home. That is reason enough.

                                Are what about those who don't want to be Syrians anymore - why are they still responsible for Syria?
                                Then they should not fight for it. But what of the Syrians that want to be Syrian?

                                Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                                ... I don't love anything just because I was born there - that's a fool's reasoning.
                                And why is that, why is it foolish?

                                I like my home for what it offers me. And once it stops offering me what some other city, state, or nation offers me, I'll gladly move away. Would you not move to some new locale for a better paying job, or find a new neighborhood with better schools and a nicer view?
                                What if someone does like their home and what offers it. Should they still give it up without a fight?

                                Do you like where you're at right now? What if someone comes and tries to take it, will you just step aside and allow it?

                                It's a fool's reasoning to not fight for what one loves.
                                The First Amendment applies to SMS, Emails, Blogs, online news, the Fourth applies to your cell phone, computer, and your car, but the Second only applies to muskets?

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