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  • #31
    Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
    Even those trying to leave it permanently?



    Why am I responsible for Los Angeles - because my parents chose to give birth to me there? Shouldn't I have some say in this?



    If they still lived there we wouldn't be having this conversation.



    So if they're a loner and their family is all dead, then it's okay to leave?



    Lots of people do that already. A sizable minority, I reckon. I've moved multiple times due to work and to improve my personal life. Have you never moved somewhere personally "better"?



    We'd be Canadian.



    If I wasn't an American anymore, why would I care?



    The Beatles would have been an American band.



    Kinda hard to have generations if you and your family are killed. Post-mortem pregnancies are notoriously difficult.



    Its their collective fault that Syria is the way it is, huh? Does that mean I get to blame you for Obamacare, since it happened on your watch?



    Hardly.



    Nope. But I don't love anything just because I was born there - that's a fool's reasoning. I like my home for what it offers me. And once it stops offering me what some other city, state, or nation offers me, I'll gladly move away. Would you not move to some new locale for a better paying job, or find a new neighborhood with better schools and a nicer view?

    A better job or escaping a war, it's the same "cowardice" at work.

    After all, look at all those cowards at Enron who didn't stay and fight to save the hell their company had become. Or those people who fled New Orleans when it flooded - absolutely selfish.
    So nothing matters but looking at for number one? No country, no home, no ideals, nothing is worth fighting for if there's an easy way out? That's one of the most pathetic things I've ever heard.

    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth defending is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stuart Mill

    Sums up my thoughts on this pretty well.
    "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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    • #32
      Reading DoDs posts. it's all what we need to know about lliberalism, girls and guys.
      There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
        If you sell your property - or it is seized, ...
        Selling in wartime is always a bad idea -

        "seized" is something else, but that's the essence of "...they can't take the land with them."

        They can demand the use of the land or the spoils of it, or take them by force, but even a conquering army needs food and lodgings.

        Here in Central Western Europe at least there's always a "...next victorious army" just around the corner.

        Contrary to popular belief many of the old families here *profited* from the second war - not the first though, being *on* the frontline is just too destructive.

        No idea how that works in the ME.
        Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

        Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
          Selling in wartime is always a bad idea -

          "seized" is something else, but that's the essence of "...they can't take the land with them."

          They can demand the use of the land or the spoils of it, or take them by force, but even a conquering army needs food and lodgings.

          Here in Central Western Europe at least there's always a "...next victorious army" just around the corner.

          Contrary to popular belief many of the old families here *profited* from the second war - not the first though, being *on* the frontline is just too destructive.

          No idea how that works in the ME.
          Sure, it's a bad idea, but in this context, how would selling in peacetime and emigrating to a different nation be any different than doing so in wartime?

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
            Sure, it's a bad idea, but in this context, how would selling in peacetime and emigrating to a different nation be any different than doing so in wartime?
            In wartime it's called desertion.
            There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

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            • #36
              Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
              So nothing matters but looking at for number one? No country, no home, no ideals, nothing is worth fighting for if there's an easy way out?
              Where did you get that from my post?

              That's one of the most pathetic things I've ever heard.
              I agree. Why did you come up with it?

              "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth defending is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stuart Mill

              Sums up my thoughts on this pretty well.
              Couldn't agree more. But then, improving my property value isn't much motivation to go out and kill people - or to risk my daughter being gang raped by a bunch of Islamists.

              To secure her individual rights, well, that's a different story altogether. But up until this post nobody mentioned freedom or rights, just nationality and the fluke of birth. Two wildly different concepts.

              And we still haven addressed how most Americans are evidently the descendants of selfish cowards for leaving their homes and coming here because America offered them better opportunities.

              Why did your ancestors come to America?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                Sure, it's a bad idea, but in this context, how would selling in peacetime and emigrating to a different nation be any different than doing so in wartime?
                Selling high priced property *just before the war* is gold of course, but that requires inside knowledge or sheer clairvoyance.

                Buying in wartime is much easier though, learn from the ancients...

                Using his wealth he also kept a troop of 500 slaves, all skilled builders, on stand-by. He would then simply wait for one of Rome's frequent fires to break out and would then offer to buy the burning properties, as well as the endangered neighbouring buildings. Using his team of builders he would then rebuild the area and keep it to draw income from rent, or sell it on with a large profit. At one point Crassus was said even to own most of the city of Rome. There was no doubt some who wondered, if some of the fires started in Rome might not actually have been his doing.
                Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

                Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

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                • #38
                  Apples and oranges comparison :the able male Syrians left their country


                  A) because they did not want to fight for their country


                  B) because the war was an ideal opportunity to go to Germany ,claiming they were war victims, to live at the expense of the Germans and to never return .

                  Whatever, we are not obliged to take care of them .Especially considering what evil results their presence is producing .

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                    Selling high priced property *just before the war* is gold of course, but that requires inside knowledge or sheer clairvoyance.

                    Buying in wartime is much easier though, learn from the ancients...
                    I wasn't speaking of economics but in the moral terms used within this thread.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by sebfrench76 View Post
                      They're not complicated, they're intelligent ,so they think by themselves.
                      You're flooding the forum on a daily basis ,with threads stating that our end is near ,because we are degenerated enough for not closing our borders,nor sinking their ****ing poor boats ,and now ,you cry a river over the poor refugees waiting in the cold weather. ??
                      And I am the one complicated ??
                      You crack me up hombre !
                      This is a current events forum, more specifically, it is a Middle East current events forum. Keeping that in mind, I post current events from the Middle East.
                      I know this may be a little complicated for some people. I did not make up the news, I did not editorialize the story.
                      If that offends you perhaps you should not participate in current events forums.
                      Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                        I wasn't speaking of economics but in the moral terms used within this thread.
                        In war morals die first, hope last.

                        That's why I'll advocate for war to be avoided as long as I can - once it starts though...
                        Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

                        Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                          In war morals die first, hope last.

                          That's why I'll advocate for war to be avoided as long as I can - once it starts though...
                          Oh no doubt, but even then the nature of the war itself also plays a big role. All wars are not created equal.

                          I see no moral obligation to march to war because the king wants to expand his domain by a few square yards of land.

                          But marching to war to protect personal liberty and freedom? To resist tyranny and oppression? Oh, those are the higher callings that ennoble mankind's struggles.

                          But I also don't see moving from one place to another in search of a better future - or to escape danger - as cowardice. I even find such sentiment to be deeply hypocritical - as I would wager most people reading this thread can trace their heritage back to a different town, province, or nation to some degree.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
                            Oh no doubt, but even then the nature of the war itself also plays a big role. All wars are not created equal.

                            But marching to war to protect personal liberty and freedom? To resist tyranny and oppression? Oh, those are the higher callings that ennoble mankind's struggles.
                            Here we agree -

                            Although marching *to war* is rarely efficient - if it's a serious war it'll march to you

                            I see no moral obligation to march to war because the king wants to expand his domain by a few square yards of land.
                            Well all wars here started because some king, emperor, dictator, or another wanted to expand his domain by exactly the amount of square miles as Belgium is big.

                            Luckily there's always another king, emperor or dictator that will march to war for the opposite.

                            But I also don't see moving from one place to another in search of a better future - or to escape danger - as cowardice. I even find such sentiment to be deeply hypocritical - as I would wager most people reading this thread can trace their heritage back to a different town, province, or nation to some degree.
                            Certainly, or more applicably, to someone who once took the land from someone else,

                            the land itself though is eternal, *your* claim on it however is not.

                            The "Country" or "Nation" is quite insignificant in that regard.
                            Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

                            Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                              This is a current events forum, more specifically, it is a Middle East current events forum. Keeping that in mind, I post current events from the Middle East.
                              I know this may be a little complicated for some people. I did not make up the news, I did not editorialize the story.
                              If that offends you perhaps you should not participate in current events forums.
                              Since you are extremely productive ,hard for me to avoid a specific area .
                              You're everywhere ,omnipresent like J.C
                              That rug really tied the room together

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                                Here we agree -

                                Although marching *to war* is rarely efficient - if it's a serious war it'll march to you
                                True, but then, if you have the chance to get out of the way, why not take it?

                                Well all wars here started because some king, emperor, dictator, or another wanted to expand his domain by exactly the amount of square miles as Belgium is big.

                                Luckily there's always another king, emperor or dictator that will march to war for the opposite.
                                Which goes to show the futility of most war. When the cause is banal and selfish, the outcome will reflect it.

                                Certainly, or more applicably to someone who once took the land from someone else,

                                the land itself though is eternal, *your* claim on it however is not.

                                The "Country" or "Nation" is quite insignificant though.
                                I agree entirely, but I would also add that land itself does not possess some inherent moral element. The people who will fight to the death just to protect a line on a map are fighting for the wrong reasons.

                                The nation itself is very insignificant. It's what that nation provides the people that is the only measure of its moral worth.

                                In the United States, we used to understand that fact. Our founding fathers were pretty stoked by the idea of the people overthrowing their government - going to war with the nation - if it failed to protect the rights and liberties it was supposed to. The nation was less important than those inherent, individual rights.

                                Tying this back into Syria and all those laughably labeled cowards, we end up with a situation for which it is hard to see where these men should fight. Who should they die for - the dictator Assad, or the bloody psychopaths of IS? How does that make their lives any better if they are opposed to both?

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