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2008 candidates and war - part I - Guiliani

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  • 2008 candidates and war - part I - Guiliani

    Feel free to add your opinions on the other candidates, the sane and insane - on all sides (I currently root for Ron Paul, and second Obama (who wants hillary??)

    here's our friend Pat's opinion on Giuliani. interesting short read, from the american conservative web site (great magazine):



    Is a Vote for Rudy a Vote for War?

    by Patrick J. Buchanan

    Rudy Giuliani has made a "promise" not to allow Iran to acquire a nuclear capability, even if it requires U.S. military action. Though the U.S. Army is scrimping to meet recruitment goals, Rudy has pledged to add at least 10 new combat brigades.

    Speaking to an Atlantic Bridge conference in London, Rudy called for NATO expansion to include Japan, India, Australia, Singapore and Israel. Has Rudy thought this through?

    Why would Japan and Australia, each of which already has a U.S. commitment to come to its defense, commit to go to war with a nuclear-armed Russia if it invaded Estonia? For joining NATO would require them to treat an attack on Estonia, or any other NATO nation in Europe, as an attack upon themselves.

    Why should the United States commit to war for India, which has territorial conflicts and has fought wars with China and Pakistan? What vital interest is it of ours who holds Kashmir? As for Israel, are American boys now to fight Hezbollah and Hamas?

    While FDR talked to Stalin, Ike and JFK to Khrushchev, and Nixon to Mao, Rudy would not talk to any "enemies bent on our destruction or those who cannot deliver on their agreements." Would he be even-handed in the Israeli-Palestinian dispute? Answers Rudy, "America shouldn't be even-handed in dealing with ... an elected democracy ... and a group of terrorists."

    If Rudy rivals McCain as the hawk's hawk in the Republican race, the foreign policy advisers he has signed up make the Vulcans of Bush look like Howard Zinn and Ramsey Clark. Arnaud de Borchgrave titled his column about them "Dogs of War."

    Team leader is Charles Hill, a co-signer of the Sept. 20, 2001, neocon ultimatum to Bush, nine days after 9/11, warning the president if he did not attack Iraq, his failure to do so "will constitute an early and perhaps decisive surrender to the war on international terrorism."

    Yet Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

    A second member of Rudy's team is Martin Kramer, an Israeli-American who, according to Ken Silverstein of Harper's, "spent 25 years at Tel Aviv University and whose Middle East policy can best be summarized as, 'What's Best for Israel?'" Silverstein calls Rudy's eight-man advisory group "AIPAC's Dream Team" AIPAC being the Israeli lobby, two of whose leaders go on trial in January for espionage against the United States.

    According to the New York Times, another key Rudy adviser is Daniel Pipes, "who has called for profiling Muslims at airports and scrutinizing American Muslims in law enforcement, the military and the diplomatic corps." Another is AEI's Michael Rubin, "who has written in favor of revoking the United States' ban on assassinations."

    Best known of Rudy's advisers is Norman Podhoretz, who wrote in June, "The Case for Bombing Iran" in Commentary, thinks we are in "World War IV" and writes that "as an American and as a Jew, I pray with all my heart" Bush will bomb Iran. Podhoretz sees us at Munich in 1938 and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as Hitler.

    "Like Hitler," writes Podhoretz, Ahmadinejad "is a revolutionary whose objective is to overturn the going international order and to replace it in the fullness of time with a new order dominated by Iran and ruled by the religio-political culture of Islamofascism."

    Time to return to Planet Earth. Ahmadinejad is not only jeered at Columbia but at colleges in Tehran. He is openly attacked by rivals. He does not control the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. He does not decide on war or peace. He runs a regime with 2 percent of U.S. gross domestic product, no nukes and no navy or air force to rival ours. He is a Shi'ite in a Sunni world. How is this 5 foot, 4 inch Persian going to strong-arm the United States, Russia and China not to mention an Israel with 300 nukes into his "new order"?

    After the axis-of-evil speech threatening war on Iraq, Iran and North Korea, Podhoretz wrote that Bush had not gone far enough.

    The "regimes that richly deserve to be overthrown ... should extend to Syria and Lebanon and Libya, as well as 'friends' of America like the Saudi royal family and Egypt's Hosni Mubarak, along with the Palestinian Authority." After toppling them all, wrote Podhoretz, as he mocked the "timorous ... incorrigibly cautious Colin Powell," let's find "the stomach to impose a new political culture on the defeated."

    Bush found the stomach. Near 4,000 Americans are dead, 27,000 wounded, Walter Reed is full, and Norman is looking for new wars. On a recent National Review cruise, he ranted that Iraq was an "amazing success," "a triumph. It couldn't have gone better." As for Saddam's WMDs, they were secretly "shipped to Syria."

    After meeting with his candidate, Podhoretz emerged happy to assure us, "There is very little difference in how he (Rudy) sees the war and I see it." If true, a vote for Rudy is a vote for endless war.

    And, as James Madison said, wars are the death of republics.
    "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

  • #2
    excellent post Piero.

    best
    CV

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    • #3
      Rudy's a straight up pig, and the bulk of his accomplishments were either the accomplishments of others (crime reduction kudos really belong to Bill Bratton and demographic changes in NYC) or they were pure smoke and mirrors (NYC budget deficit was filled by selling off NYC real estate holdings, and nearly half of Giuliani's convictions as US Attorney have been overturned or thrown out on appeal.) In a general election his only asset is that Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi have a proven track record that's actually detrimental to national security. I can't believe that the GOP is so devoid of talent that a crass opportunist like Giuliani is their front runner.
      I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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      • #4
        I'm rooting for Romney! As he has a proven track record in business and negotiation and therefore perhaps deal with and coordinate with this nations allies in the War on Terror.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
          And, as James Madison said, wars are the death of republics.
          Very likely the death of ours if this goes on.

          Everybody hates each other now.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
            Rudy's a straight up pig, and the bulk of his accomplishments were either the accomplishments of others (crime reduction kudos really belong to Bill Bratton and demographic changes in NYC) or they were pure smoke and mirrors (NYC budget deficit was filled by selling off NYC real estate holdings, and nearly half of Giuliani's convictions as US Attorney have been overturned or thrown out on appeal.) In a general election his only asset is that Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi have a proven track record that's actually detrimental to national security. I can't believe that the GOP is so devoid of talent that a crass opportunist like Giuliani is their front runner.
            If I say I agree with you I hope you don't change your mind. I happen to have seen Norman Podhoretz several times on TV and agree with everything I've heard him say. It's not enough to to get me to vote for Giuliani however. I'm not the great liberal everyone seems to think I am. I think the republican party is trapped in a cycle of lies and undermining the will of the American people that comes from having to defend the actions of Nixon and Reagan, and I guess now GW Bush as well(it just gets progressively worse) and therefore will probably never vote for them again. I want to support Obama. But of all things, Hillary's flip-flop(ever so slightly) on immigration has me thinking that the finger in the wind approach will lead her to reject amnesty altogether. Oddly enough, I would then support her. Obama's 190 word answer to the yes or no question of driver's licenses for illegals was a turn-off.
            Last edited by macgregr; 19 Nov 07, 11:43.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Phebe View Post
              Everybody hates each other now.
              No, you are imagining (once again) that everyone else has the same feelings you do (& we sure don't). You are the only one who hate others now.
              "If you are right, then you are right even if everyone says you are wrong. If you are wrong then you are wrong even if everyone says you are right." William Penn.

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              • #8
                You're dead on Phebe! You've been a dose of reality this forum has badly needed. I've considered TB to be one of the more composed, and thus enjoyable debaters. Though certainly not this time. His post seems to betray his argument. Is this what you guys call 'trolling'?

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                • #9
                  Thank you, Macgregr, very kind!

                  The forum is so interesting today, I'm not getting anything else done.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by macgregr View Post
                    You're dead on Phebe! You've been a dose of reality this forum has badly needed. I've considered TB to be one of the more composed, and thus enjoyable debaters. Though certainly not this time. His post seems to betray his argument. Is this what you guys call 'trolling'?
                    I tend to get a tad irate when people denegriate the troops who are putting their lives on the line for their liberties. Phebe has been tirelessly slandering the folks in uniform. Gee, kind of turns the clock back 40 years and has the same nonsensical crud the hippies did when protesting the conflict in Vietnam and couldn't talk to anyone in uniform without spittle coming from their mouths.
                    "If you are right, then you are right even if everyone says you are wrong. If you are wrong then you are wrong even if everyone says you are right." William Penn.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by macgregr View Post
                      You're dead on Phebe!
                      Oh come on now. Are you going to tell me once again that gravity didn't exist before Isacc Newton had an apple fall on his head? Same kind of illogic.
                      "If you are right, then you are right even if everyone says you are wrong. If you are wrong then you are wrong even if everyone says you are right." William Penn.

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                      • #12
                        Just for the record, I proudly served in the US Navy right out of high school. I wasn't a lifer. but I did my time. I cracked my spine(L1), for which I received no compensation, though I sure felt it- and still do, every day. Of course there are people with much, much worse. I think I'm allowed to complain about the situation of the military. They sure can't.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by macgregr View Post
                          Just for the record, I proudly served in the US Navy right out of high school. I wasn't a lifer. but I did my time. I cracked my spine(L1), for which I received no compensation, though I sure felt it- and still do, every day. Of course there are people with much, much worse. I think I'm allowed to complain about the situation of the military. They sure can't.
                          If you mean complain about the conditions and circumstances some military are forced into I'll be out front talking FOR them. I sure won't be in the back talking ABOUT them and how they're criminals, or on drugs or too stupid to do anything but wear a uniform. Or, horror of horros actually reenlisting and voluntarily serving in a combat zone more than once. I am not aware of any posting you have made not honoring our troops/sailors but someone you were praising sure makes a practice out of it.
                          "If you are right, then you are right even if everyone says you are wrong. If you are wrong then you are wrong even if everyone says you are right." William Penn.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by macgregr View Post
                            I think the republican party is trapped in a cycle of lies and undermining the will of the American people that comes from having to defend the actions of Nixon and Reagan, and I guess now GW Bush as well(it just gets progressively worse) and therefore will probably never vote for them again.
                            That's exactly how I feel about the Democratic Party, but then my view is skewed by the fact that I'm a native New Yorker, and NYC is essentially a one-party state. I've since urban Democratic politics up close for far too many years, so I now have an almost automatic antipathy towards Democrats. It's not necessarily fair, but then again, neither were the shenanigans that this City has suffered through for the last 231 years.

                            I want to support Obama.
                            He seems like a nice and earnest guy, but he's just too green, too unseasoned for the big leagues. I suspect that he'll be stronger in four years' time -- as long as he doesn't blow all of his cash on the 2008 lost cause. Then again, by my standards at any rate, I find Obama's policy stands a little too progressive for my tastes. Apart from his call to leave Iraq immediately, I'd rather vote for Ron Paul.

                            But of all things, Hillary's flip-flop(ever so slightly) on immigration has me thinking that the finger in the wind approach will lead her to reject amnesty altogether. Oddly enough, I would then support her. Obama's 190 word answer to the yes or no question of driver's licenses for illegals was a turn-off.
                            But that was always the Clinton MO: fly a test balloon before going up in an airplane. Say what you want about about Dick Morris, but he sure knew how to run a focus group.

                            Just for the record, I proudly served in the US Navy right out of high school. I wasn't a lifer. but I did my time. I cracked my spine(L1), for which I received no compensation, though I sure felt it- and still do, every day.
                            No sh*t. I actually winced when I read that. That's worse than splintering your femur in a motorcycle accident, isn't it? Rainy days must be a real bitch for you then. Well, if you don't mind, swabby, allow me to raise a cold one in your honor, I'll have my wife send you the morphine in the mail.
                            I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                              That's exactly how I feel about the Democratic Party, but then my view is skewed by the fact that I'm a native New Yorker, and NYC is essentially a one-party state. I've since urban Democratic politics up close for far too many years, so I now have an almost automatic antipathy towards Democrats. It's not necessarily fair, but then again, neither were the shenanigans that this City has suffered through for the last 231 years.
                              I've discussed my problems with the republicans, though they don't get elected in a vacuum. They're on the right side of many issues such as Iran, immigration, and gun control. It's just that in the end, for example, they've done nothing to stop Iran, in fact, everything to make them the problem they are today. They're against amnesty, yet they're the ones protecting the businesses that employ illegals. They're against gun control, but obviously don't do enough to find ways of keeping them out of the hands of criminals and nutjobs.

                              Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                              He seems like a nice and earnest guy, but he's just too green, too unseasoned for the big leagues. I suspect that he'll be stronger in four years' time -- as long as he doesn't blow all of his cash on the 2008 lost cause. Then again, by my standards at any rate, I find Obama's policy stands a little too progressive for my tastes. Apart from his call to leave Iraq immediately, I'd rather vote for Ron Paul.
                              He is a bit green, and hasn't come down firmly on certain important issues enough for my liking. His stand on illegal immigration will decide it for me. Ron Paul is by far the best republican candidate. At this moment, he's the only candidate on the right side of both Iraq and immigration.

                              Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                              But that was always the Clinton MO: fly a test balloon before going up in an airplane. Say what you want about about Dick Morris, but he sure knew how to run a focus group.
                              Forgive me but I do believe in the 'conspiracy', whatever you want to call it, to destroy the Clinton image. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent to that purpose, much of it taxpayers'. That doesn't vindicate Bill. But I'm very suspicious about the sludge that oozes from republicans whenever someone even mentions the word 'Clinton'. Bill Clinton is the political equivalent of the 'child star', and has some issues. Though if his biggest flaw an adulterous affair, I'm not going to judge him too harshly.I'm not too religious but I am wary of 'casting the first stone'. Notwithstanding Kennedy, whose career was cut short, Clinton left this country in better relative shape than any president since FDR. If Hillary's biggest flaw is her ambition, what's wrong with that? The woman wants to be president. If I agree with her agenda come voting time, I'll vote for her. I don't just yet. But with her one never knows. Her position could change.

                              Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                              No sh*t. I actually winced when I read that. That's worse than splintering your femur in a motorcycle accident, isn't it? Rainy days must be a real bitch for you then. Well, if you don't mind, swabby, allow me to raise a cold one in your honor, I'll have my wife send you the morphine in the mail.
                              The pain gets worse as you you work your back until you cant walk. You can hardly breathe. It's definitely a disability. Of course if I sit here hang out on the internet, I feel fine. OTOH my heelbones have both been splintered and that pain is more a constant throbbing, though staying on my feet doesn't seem to bother them. Thank you for your concern. back at you.
                              Last edited by macgregr; 21 Nov 07, 11:23.

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