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  • Socialist logic on immigration

    How and why Europe must embrace ethnic diversity

    by Giuliano Amato (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuliano_Amato)


    Europe's ageing population is being accentuated by low birth rates that promise even-fewer native Europeans, with an increasingly large share of them made-up of over-65. We are already suffering from labour shortages, and it's not just highly-qualified positions that we're unable to fill because our human resources are insufficient. The problem is due to get even worse, and our economic growth will be at stake, and with it Europe's future in the world.

    The options before us are therefore clear.
    If we prefer to defend our European identities as they are now, and avoid tensions and conflicts in our own backyards by reducing the number of newcomers, we must also accept our own decline, for Europe most definitely will decline, just as many other societies have done in the past.


    http://www.europesworld.org/EWSettin...9/Default.aspx

    So Mr. Amato proposes that an ageing and declining population should embrace 'tensions and conflicts in our own backyards' by increasing the number of non-natives in order to maintain economic growth. Mr. Amato is displaying the perfect example of socialist "logic".

  • #2
    Well why not have more kids then?

    Also, wha makes current immigration different than past waves...in Europe I mean.

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    • #3
      The infrastructure cant handle it. In Britain at the mo its driven certain wage brackets down whilst putting increase pressure on local services. People have always moved about but currently this is not in a controlled manner with neighbourhoods changing extremely rapidly causing resentment and in some cases violence. Economics are important but not at the expense of social co hesion.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by joea View Post
        Well why not have more kids then?

        Also, wha makes current immigration different than past waves...in Europe I mean.
        This one is Muslim, and they are increasingly producing more kids which sets up a demographic trend of Europe going Muslim.
        Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

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        • #5
          There is some truth to that aswell.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by joea View Post
            Well why not have more kids then?

            Also, wha makes current immigration different than past waves...in Europe I mean.
            Europe has seen far worse demographic troubles in its past and came out of them by having kids. The difference is that there were no socialists back then calling for non-European populations to come in, settle and breed in order to replace the natives and maintain the same economic growth level. Back then the solution was the natural one - breed. But that solution takes time to make itself felt in the economy and today's politicos are interested in growth, profit and competition.

            In the past the migration waves came in by force. Today they can't do that but someone is opening the gates for them.

            Also the socialist are pretty good at understanding and supporting other people's rejection of colonialism (European colonialism) but they look down and oppose the same rejection when it comes from Europeans (calling them crazy right-wingers that don't "embrace" foreign cultures).

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            • #7
              There was an interesting documentary on UK television recently on immigration. In the past most studies have simply looked at the benefits or otherwise of immigration in general whereas this one looked at the contribution or lack thereof of specific groups of immigrants to the UK.

              The study showed some interesting findings:-

              Americans, Poles, Nigereans and Indians tended to be net contributers to Britain, generally hard working and/or highly educated and rarely on benefits.

              Whereas Pakistanis, Somalis and Portuguse especially the Somalis and Portuguese tended to live off benefits and rarely work.

              There was an interesting contrast between the Indians and the Pakistanis with the former tending to be highly educated achievers whereas the later had a very high proprtion living off benefits.

              http://www.channel4.com/news/article...t+truth/867147
              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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              • #8
                Yeah I saw a bit of that aswell. Cultural thing I guess. This government doesnt mind having the pee out of it by these people as long as they are still seen to be paid up mmbers of the PC elite.

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                • #9
                  I remember we talked about this in school here too. It is the trend that developed countries have declining birth rates as people find more opportunities to travel and do other things that prosperity makes possible and Children get in the way of. So people wait longer to have Children and have fewer.

                  The US would have the same problem except that the US has always "welcomed" higher levels of legal immigration than Europe. I read in the economist a few years back that the US takes in more "Legal" immigrants than all of Europe combined. So this adds to the population. Couple this with the fact that immigrants have higher birth rates than the established group of citizenry and you find that the USA doesn't have the same population decline issues that Europe does.

                  Also the welfare state is not as extensive here, so immigrants don't have as many opportunities to come and live off the dole without contributing to the tax base. Thus the US has avoided some of the problems that Europe faces with population and immigrant costs.

                  Clearly immigrants are an important issue for Americans these days too, but for different reasons than the Europeans.

                  The above statements are intended to highlight some issues, not make a political statement

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Miss.Saigon View Post
                    I remember we talked about this in school here too. It is the trend that developed countries have declining birth rates as people find more opportunities to travel and do other things that prosperity makes possible and Children get in the way of. So people wait longer to have Children and have fewer.

                    The US would have the same problem except that the US has always "welcomed" higher levels of legal immigration than Europe. I read in the economist a few years back that the US takes in more "Legal" immigrants than all of Europe combined. So this adds to the population. Couple this with the fact that immigrants have higher birth rates than the established group of citizenry and you find that the USA doesn't have the same population decline issues that Europe does.

                    Also the welfare state is not as extensive here, so immigrants don't have as many opportunities to come and live off the dole without contributing to the tax base. Thus the US has avoided some of the problems that Europe faces with population and immigrant costs.

                    Clearly immigrants are an important issue for Americans these days too, but for different reasons than the Europeans.

                    The above statements are intended to highlight some issues, not make a political statement
                    It would appear that even with our gold standard () benefits and these hoards of immigrants we are still doing OK for us.

                    http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/pol...cle3067229.ece

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Miss.Saigon View Post
                      The US would have the same problem except that the US has always "welcomed" higher levels of legal immigration than Europe.
                      Mainly because we're a nation of immigrants. I think thats one of the reasons we have always been more 'accepting' of immigration than many of the European nations. That, and because we don't posses some racial/ethnic identity born from millenia of common history/breeding/etc.: being an 'American' is not as clearly defined as being 'German', for instance.

                      Of course, there have always been bursts of 'Anti-Immigration' in the US: the Germans, the Irish, the Italians, the Chinese, etc.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by verbaluzi View Post
                        It would appear that even with our gold standard () benefits and these hoards of immigrants we are still doing OK for us.

                        http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/pol...cle3067229.ece
                        I fail to see why you are being sarcastic about what I said. Britain has a more extensive welfare system than the US. This is true. This makes it more possible for people to make the argument, which has been made here, that the immigrants cost money on the dole. I was not stating a position.

                        As far as immigrants working hard and contributing, I have seen the same types of stories about immigrants here too.

                        Here we get less welfare cost arguments against immigration, although we get some, but we get more arguments about the costs of crime associated with immigration.
                        Last edited by Miss Saigon; 19 Oct 07, 16:28.

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                        • #13
                          very good thread Imperial.

                          yes, Immigration is not the solution. unless you take in the best educated and the hardest working ones. (but that's not nice to the countries you poach them from). sadly immigration is more and more of people who want to benefit from the insanely generous systems of EU. it's folly.

                          the real questions no one asks is: why growth?

                          why do we need economic growth? is that a religion? we can downscale a bit our economies and adapt for the new demographics.

                          ultimately europeans will start to make more children again, that is if they discover that consumerism and self-indulgence is not an end in life. it doesn't even need a return to spirituality.

                          as for immigration, I am am however happy that the eastern eUropean countries joined the EU, and I would welcome any time ANY time an ukrainan, Belarus, russia, serbian, etc. over an africa. it's not skin color, it's culture.

                          but you must dismantle the social system and make sure that you only survive if you work (or have means to live). once you dont' have a social net anymore. you can even afford to open up the borders as no one would want to come anymore.

                          europe has tough choices to do and the socialists (the real conservatives today) are the ones destroying our culture (perhaps out of self-hatred?). but the good news is that the far-right is coming back with a vengeance and will set the balance right (pun intended) again.
                          "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Imperial View Post
                            So Mr. Amato proposes that an ageing and declining population should embrace 'tensions and conflicts in our own backyards' by increasing the number of non-natives in order to maintain economic growth. Mr. Amato is displaying the perfect example of socialist "logic".
                            Why should Europe's future generations pay for the lazyness of
                            this olde generation, they ran up the deflicit, didn't have children,
                            polluted like mad and now they want a gold plated retirement at
                            yet again their childrens and their country's expense.

                            In twenty years the crisis will solve itself, just do nothing.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bugreport View Post
                              In twenty years the crisis will solve itself, just do nothing.
                              That's my idea too. Either do something to compel Europeans to have more children or don't do anything and let the demographic forces do their own thing. A fall from 600 million people to 500 or 400 million is not the end of the European civilisation. But this demographic fear is used by the socialists to pursue their multicultural social engineering project disguised as a demographic solution. And like Piero pointed out, they are backed by people obsessed with continous economic growth.

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