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Koran is freedom, Koran is peace!

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  • Koran is freedom, Koran is peace!

    Since 9-11 there has been many discusions about Islam, mostly negative, and whether it is an intrinsic positive force or negative one. However most of this discussions centered around sectarian Islam as represented by Sunni or Shia Islam and not the Koranic teachings. This is because sectarian Islam rely on whats known as hadiths, prophetic traditions, to interpret Islam. Many people are not aware that Sunni or Shia jurisprudence mostly rely on these prophetic traditions for their doctrine. The scets emerged during the Abbasid era about 2 to 3 centuries after the prophet and claimed to have knowledge of his"oral" tradition that was passed down across 5 or 6 generations.

    The Koran however contradicts many of these prophetic traditions. The koran has given humans the complete freedom unparalleled in known human history:

    2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

    16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

    6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

    4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

    88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

    42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ..

    67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."

    This is the command the Koran gave the prophet and he was to only preach and warn. However the pagans took a military aggressive response against him and the koran gave the right to fight for his survival as the message is dependent on his survival.

    Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40

    As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

    The koran is peace and justice and freedom. the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, never left behind him any text except the Koran. The early Muslims never compiled and spread any text but the Koran.

    "O you mankind! We have created you from a single pair of male and female and made you into nations and tribes so that you know each other. Verily the most honored in the sight of God is the one who is most righteous" (49:13).

    Islam is peace! The Koran is the real Islam. The Koran does not believe in religious divisions. faith is faith.

    Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . 2:62

    It refutes supremacy except by faith and deeds:

    And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. 2.111-113

    It refutes racism, class discrimination, gender bias and even tribal fanatacism:

    "And among His signs are the creation of the heaven and earth, and the variation in your language and your colors; verily in that are signs for those who know" (30:22).

    "O you mankind! We have created you from a single pair of male and female and made you into nations and tribes so that you know each other. Verily the most honored in the sight of God is the one who is most righteous" (49:13).

    O you who believe! Avoid much suspicions, indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it . And fear God. Verily, God is the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful. 49.12

    It calls for no blind revenge or hate:

    O you who believe! Stand out firmly for God, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety and fear God, for God is well acquainted with all that you do. 5:8

    Islam is peace. Real Islam is only in Koran.
    Last edited by Bigmo; 26 Sep 07, 01:57.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Bigmo View Post
    Since 9-11 there has been many discusions about Islam, mostly negative, and whether it is an intrinsic positive force or negative one. However most of this discussions centered around sectarian Islam as represented by Sunni or Shia Islam and not the Koranic teachings. This is because sectarian Islam rely on whats known as hadiths, prophetic traditions, to interpret Islam. Many people are not aware that Sunni or Shia jurisprudence mostly rely on these prophetic traditions for their doctrine. The scets emerged during the Abbasid era about 2 to 3 centuries after the prophet and claimed to have knowledge of his"oral" tradition that was passed down across 5 or 6 generations....
    Umm, yeah, okay...what's your point? Is it that the MUSLIM TERRORISTS who flew those planes as weapons were doing it in a peaceful fashion? Take it down the road to the Democratic Underground, Mac. I think the people here are smart enough to separate the crazies from the real Muslims.

    But don't forget, just like any religion, man screws things up regularly.

    Comment


    • #3
      What about the exhortations to slay infidels?

      What about forcing non-moozlims to pay taxes?
      1. Even if you could make something idiot proof they would just go out and build a better idiot.
      2. The road to hell is paved by a hard working asphalt crew of meddlesome legislators.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Mini-Me View Post
        What about the exhortations to slay infidels?

        What about forcing non-moozlims to pay taxes?
        Any religion that calls for "Conversion by the sword", the slaying of the infidel non-believers and the eventual forced conversion of the entire world is not in any way, a religion of peace.
        "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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        • #5
          could one of the admins please put this into the terrorism folder. I come to the barracks to get away from the fighting about Islam being a religeon of peace or not.

          thank you

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by medivac View Post
            could one of the admins please put this into the terrorism folder. I come to the barracks to get away from the fighting about Islam being a religeon of peace or not.

            thank you
            I second that!! To the Terrorism Forum with this.
            Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

            Comment


            • #7
              Thread returned to Terrorism Forum.
              On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

              ACG History Today

              BoRG

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Admiral View Post
                Thread returned to Terrorism Forum.
                Will topic's about Bible also get sent to Terrorism Forum?
                "Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery"
                Robert G. Ingersoll 1833-1899

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JML View Post
                  Will topic's about Bible also get sent to Terrorism Forum?
                  JML

                  you missed my whole point. The barracks are for fun. Any subject that will cause arguements do not belong in the barracks in my opinion. So if a thread will cause trouble then it should be moved. If a thread about the bible was causing trouble, then in my humble opinion it should be moved.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JML View Post
                    Will topic's about Bible also get sent to Terrorism Forum?
                    How pathetic.

                    The image of muslims as terrorists was brought upon themselves. They are, rightly, connected in the Western mind because of their behavior, acting in accordance with the commandments in their "holy" texts. No one else is to blame.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by medivac View Post
                      JML

                      you missed my whole point. The barracks are for fun. Any subject that will cause arguements do not belong in the barracks in my opinion. So if a thread will cause trouble then it should be moved. If a thread about the bible was causing trouble, then in my humble opinion it should be moved.
                      Not strictly true, the Barracks is (are?) for topics that don't fit anywhere else. Just because a thread might start an argument is no reason to move it...necessarily. On this occasion I think it's OK to move it to the terrorism folder, although strictly speaking, if someone wants to come here and talk about their religion it's not terrorism per se.

                      Personally, I doubt we'll see the OP again as the topic appears to have been raised to cause an argument.

                      Dr. S.
                      Imagine a ball of iron, the size of the sun. And once a year a tiny sparrow brushes its surface with the tip of its wing. And when that ball of iron, the size of the sun, is worn away to nothing, your punishment will barely have begun.

                      www.sinisterincorporated.co.uk

                      www.tabletown.co.uk

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Doctor Sinister View Post
                        Not strictly true, the Barracks is (are?) for topics that don't fit anywhere else. Just because a thread might start an argument is no reason to move it...necessarily. On this occasion I think it's OK to move it to the terrorism folder, although strictly speaking, if someone wants to come here and talk about their religion it's not terrorism per se.

                        Personally, I doubt we'll see the OP again as the topic appears to have been raised to cause an argument.

                        Dr. S.

                        I guess I have to agree to disagree with you Doc S. When someone posts on the forums with the sole intention of causing trouble, then I think something should be done. On other forums I go too, it is called trolling. To see how many people they can **** off or whatever. Maybe a special place can be found called "Trolling" where these threads could be placed. The people who want to fall for the trolling could go there. The person who posted this thread is probably a regular poster and they were afraid to post under their real name. They posted this thread with the sole intention of causing trouble and you can see it has already started.

                        To be honest, the places I go on these forums is getting smaller and smaller. If the barracks are invaded by this type of thing, then I will probably stay on the other forums. I have no use for people who go on forums just to prove how tough they are and to get away with things. To me it shows low intelligence to do that sort of thing.

                        I have enough problems in my life without having to be subjected to this kind of thing.

                        I guess the internet makes everyone a tough guy.

                        This is not directed at you Doc, but I am just airing my feelings.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Admiral View Post
                          Thread returned to Terrorism Forum.
                          Well...Since there seems to be some objections to putting this thread in The Barracks and some objections to putting it in Terrorism!...I think that the following quote...

                          "Islam is peace. Real Islam is only in Koran."


                          ...Would make me say that the thread belonged in Barracks Humor...
                          Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mini-Me View Post
                            What about the exhortations to slay infidels?

                            What about forcing non-moozlims to pay taxes?
                            You are reading the verses wrong. I think you mean verse 9-5 and 9-29.

                            First of all there is a strange hostility here. I mean whats the big deal. We are all hear to educate ourselves and share opinions.

                            After 9-11 there has been various debates about Islam. Some have said that the terrorist are Islam's true spoken. The so called moderates practice taqiya. Taqiya is the deliberate lying for the faith. They say Islam is a violent religion that commands Muslims to kill non Muslim. Non Muslims have 3 choices, either they convert, pay the jizya(tax) or die. They say Muhammad was peaceful for PR reasons and once strong showed his true colors and preached violent jihad. They say all the peaceful verses were abrogated after his final victory with this verse:

                            9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

                            And also this verse:

                            9.29. Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

                            This verses are chosen for a reason. When read alone it implies a command to attack until they convert. Of course there are other verses in the Koran that talks about fighting. But why do they tend to focus on these ones? Its simple, the other verses tend to show the defensive nature of the jihad and also the malicious intent and behavior of the pagans. Thus never cited. Lets look at some of them:

                            2.190. Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors

                            2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith

                            2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression

                            Also:

                            2.217. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

                            Also:

                            2.194. The prohibited month for the prohibited month,- and so for all things prohibited,- there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, Transgress ye likewise against him. But fear God, and know that God is with those who restrain themselves.

                            All these verses talks about fighting, however within these verses the defensive nature of the verses and the malicious behavior of the pagans is cited. Thus those who wish to attack Islam never cite those verses. Its a deliberate attempt to hide what the Koran is saying and using selective verses to imply what they know the verses does not mean.

                            Lets however look at the verse that is often cited. This time we will take the verses before and after it to see what is the context this verse is talking.

                            9.4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.

                            9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

                            However in the same chapter in explains the intention behind this verse:

                            9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

                            Its important for us to understand what the Koran is saying. When the koran says if they repent and establish regular prayers and so on, its not a command to attack them till they do that. Its a command to say if they choose to one day become Muslims, do not despise them because of past blood. Let bygones be bygones because now there are your brethren. If he chooses to remain pagan then let him be and do not fight him unless he chooses to fight you. The verse are read wrong, since many pagans converted to Islam and some of the earlier believers had problems with individuals who they fought before or were persecuted and oppressed by them before.

                            The verses clearly indicate that no forced conversion was there.There are standards that the Koran established for fighting.

                            As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

                            Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40

                            Also another verse expalins the environment the prophet found dimself with the pagans who dominated the Arabian desert at that time:

                            4.75. And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated ?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

                            However both Sunni Islam or Shia islam do not follow the Koranic guidance. They follow whats know as the hadiths. The hadiths are the supposed "oral" prophetic traditions they say was passed along orally across time and was collected and written down 2 to 3 centuries after the prophet. The prophet and his companions never left behind them any text except the Koran. The hadiths emerged during the reign of the Abbasid empire and was a way to establish an orthodoxy and give legitimacy to a corrupt dynasty by using the prophet's name. Everything from executing apostates, to stoning adulterers and labelling other monotheist as infidels have their support not in the koran, but in these so called hadiths. Many of these have their foundation in Rabbinic or Byzantinian traditions that somehow found their way into Islam. There are no support for these in the Koran. So hadiths have the same place in sectarian Islam as do the Talmud in Judaism. The Koran condemned the Talmud and Jesus in the Gospel of Mark 7 also condemned the Talmud. The Koran only recognizes the Torah and the Gospel. However like Islam, both these religions have abandoned these scriptues for either a supposed "oral" tradition that emerged centuries later or a supposed "holy ghost" who was to interpret the Gospel in ways not supported by the Gospel.

                            The Koran has over 35 verses guaranteeing freedom of religion and speech. However the hadiths say something else. Many of these hadiths are lies and fabrications to create an autoctratic ideology using the prophet as its spokesman and marginalyzing the Koran. Many Muslims are ignorant about this and assume the Koran supports the sect's doctrine. They have been taught to read the Koran according to these hadiths.Many do not even know the Koran contradicts many of these hadiths and some hadiths even claims verses from the Koran are missing. However time is slowly changing that. This is the Koranist movement and we are fighting for the re-establishment of the Koran as islam's sole spokesman.

                            No hostilities intended, just education. We do not need to fight over this. Anyways if you have any questions I will be willing to answer.

                            Islam is peace!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bigmo View Post
                              You are reading the verses wrong. I think you mean verse 9-5 and 9-29.

                              First of all there is a strange hostility here. I mean whats the big deal. We are all hear to educate ourselves and share opinions.

                              [...]

                              Islam is peace!
                              Then go preach to bin Laden and gang...They're the ones who are mixed up on the true meaning of Islam.

                              Even if you could convince every single Christian, Jew, Atheist and Agnostic in the entire world that Islam is a religion of peace...Bin Laden, Zawahiri, Ahmadinejad and millions of other Muslims who follow Salafism, Wahabism, Takfiri and quite a few other variants of Islam, believe that they are doing Allah's bidding when they blow up and decapitate infidels.
                              Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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