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  • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
    The "same old", etc. comes from your quarter as a clone of Edward Said and the "genuine experts" you present that ape his polarizing and ineffectual views which block any real middle ground being found;

    Enough Said: The False Scholarship of Edward Said


    EXCERPTS;

    ....
    The book that made Edward Said famous was Orientalism, published in 1978 when he was forty-three. Said’s objective was to expose the worm at the core of Western civilization, namely, its inability to define itself except over and against an imagined “other.” That “other” was the Oriental, a figure “to be feared . . . or to be controlled.” Ergo, Said claimed that “every European, in what he could say about the Orient, was . . . a racist, an imperialist, and almost totally ethnocentric.” Elsewhere in the text he made clear that what was true for Europeans held equally for Americans.
    This echoed a theme of 1960s radicalism that was forged in the movements against Jim Crow and against America’s war in Vietnam, namely that the Caucasian race was the scourge of humanity. ...
    ...
    These two books—Orientalism and The Question of Palestine—each of which was followed by various sequels and elaborations, established the twin pillars of Said’s career as the avenging voice of the Palestinians against Israel, and more broadly of the Arabs, Muslims, and other “Orientals” against the West as a whole.
    Said rolled American racism and European colonialism into one mélange of white oppression of darker-skinned peoples. He was not the only thinker to have forged this amalgam, but his unique further contribution was to represent “Orientals” as the epitome of the dark-skinned; Muslims as the modal Orientals; Arabs as the essential Muslims; and, finally, Palestinians as the ultimate Arabs. Abracadabra—Israel was transformed from a redemptive refuge from two thousand years of persecution to the very embodiment of white supremacy.
    ....
    But in September 1999, Commentary published an investigative article by Justus Reid Weiner presenting evidence that Said had largely falsified his background. A trove of documents showed that until he moved to the United States to attend prep school in 1951, Said had resided his entire life in Cairo, not Palestine. A few months later, Said published his autobiography, which confirmed this charge without acknowledging or making any attempt to explain the earlier contrary claims that he had made in discussing his background.
    ...
    What was important, however, was the light shed on Said’s disingenuous and misleading methods, becasue they also turn out to be the foundation of his scholarly work. The intellectual deceit was especially obvious in his most important book, Orientalism. Its central idea is that Western imperial conquest of Asia and North Africa was entwined with the study and depiction of the native societies, which inevitably entailed misrepresenting and denigrating them. Said explained: “Knowledge of subject races or Orientals is what makes their management easy and profitable; knowledge gives power, more power requires more knowledge, and so on in an increasingly profitable dialectic of information and control.”
    ...
    Critics pointed out a variety of errors in Orientalism, starting with bloopers that suggested Said’s grasp of Middle Eastern history was shaky. ...
    ....
    More serious still was his lack of scruple in the use of sources. ...
    ...
    Said’s misleading use of quotes shows the problem with his work in microcosm. On a broad view, Said fundamentally misrepresented his subject. In challenging Said’s first alleged “dogma” of Orientalism, which ascribes all virtue to the West and its opposite to the Orient, Varisco says that Said is describing “a stereotype that at the time of his writing would have been similarly rejected by the vast majority of those [Said] lumps together as Orientalists.” ...

    ...
    In this atmosphere, wrote the New York Times in its obituary for Said, “Orientalism established Dr. Said as a figure of enormous influence in American and European universities, a hero to many, especially younger faculty and graduate students on the left for whom that book became an intellectual credo and the founding document of what came to be called postcolonial studies.” ...
    ...
    etc.
    http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/a...ip-edward-said

    BTW, should be amusing how many YOU think are fiction, given most of what you cite tends to be that ...
    It seems reasonable to point out that I never mentioned Edward Said, but do not let that stop your rambling.

    Still, all that research and you are still quoting Beck. Anyways you stick with the likes of him, and then whine when people point out how ridiculous they are.



    On the plus side all this talk of Beck means this is relevant, Nazi tourettes.


    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d2a_1273833689
    Last edited by Sergio; 31 Aug 15, 03:54.
    "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
    G.B Shaw

    "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
    Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

    Comment


    • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
      Not from what I've seen, but curious if you have any evidence to support this.

      Just for one, Hindu hasn't changed much ....
      the Hindu custom of Sati was once common, not any more. That's a major change.
      Christians don't burn people any more either.
      "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
      validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
      "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sergio View Post
        It seems reasonable to point out that I never mentioned Edward Said, but do not let that stop your rambling.
        It seems reasonable you did not read the full article, or did not understand it, or are obstructing the issue. For your sake, and more so the many readers/viewers here, I'll present some more of the relevant parts of the article.

        Originally posted by Sergio View Post
        Still, all that research and you are still quoting Beck. Anyways you stick with the likes of him, and then whine when people point out how ridiculous they are.



        On the plus side all this talk of Beck means this is relevant, Nazi tourettes.


        http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d2a_1273833689
        This is one of the ways your are like Taieb, in making false assumptions about people and what they say, but is typical of the profile for Liberals/Leftists. How you get Beck out of a World Affairs article on Said underscores your loopy thinking it would seem.

        Just to make more clear, some of the conclusion of the prior cited article;
        EXCERPTS;
        ....
        Without ever relinquishing his claim to personify a “glamour-garlanded ideal of ‘outsiderdom,’” as one disillusioned reviewer of a series of lectures Said delivered in London put it, Said and his disciples took power in academia, as reflected in the astonishing number of courses that assigned his books and the frequency with which they were cited. Varisco observed that “a generation of students across disciplines has grown up with limited challenges to the polemical charge by Said that scholars who study the Middle East and Islam still do so institutionally through an interpretive sieve that divides a superior West from an inferior East.” The new Saidian orthodoxy became so utterly dominant in the Middle East Studies Association, and so unfriendly to dissenting voices, that in 2007 Bernard Lewis and Fouad Ajami took the lead in forming an alternative professional organization, the Association for the Study of the Middle East and Africa.
        ....
        Said’s career, the deviousness and posturing and ineffable vanity of it, would have been mostly an academic matter if he had not been so successful in redefining Arabs and Muslims as the moral equivalent of blacks and in casting Israel as the racist white oppressor. Four years after the UN General Assembly had declared Zionism to be a form of racism, Said gave this same idea a highbrow reiteration. Israel did not give Arabs the same right of immigration as Jews, he said mockingly, because they are “‘less developed.’”
        Decades after Orientalism was published, Said explained that Israel had been its covert target all along:
        I don’t think I would have written that book had I not been politically associated with a struggle. The struggle of Arab and Palestinian nationalism is very important to that book. Orientalism is not meant to be an abstract account of some historical formation but rather a part of the liberation from such stereotypes and such domination of my own people, whether they are Arabs, Muslims, or Palestinians.
        Said had not acknowledged such an agenda in the pages of Orientalism or at the time of its publication, ...
        ....
        Although Said’s assault on the Jewish state was thus initially camouflaged, it was devastatingly effective, as his stance on Arab/Israel questions came to dominate Middle East studies. The UCLA historian of the Middle East Nikki Keddie, whose sympathetic work on revolutionary Iran had won Said’s praise in his book Covering Islam, commented:
        There has been a tendency in the Middle East field to adopt the word “Orientalism” as a generalized swear-word essentially referring to people who take the “wrong” position on the Arab-Israeli dispute or to people who are judged too “conservative.” It has nothing to do with whether they are good or not good in their disciplines.
        His reputation made by the success of Orientalism, Said devoted much of the rest of his career to more direct advocacy of the Arab/Muslim/Palestinian cause, starting with the publication of The Question of Palestine in 1979, by which time he was already a member of the PLO’s top official body, the Palestinian National Council. The book was a full-throated polemic. The Jews were the aggressors; and the Palestinians their victims—on all counts and with little nuance. Even on the matter of terrorism, Said asserted, “There is nothing in Palestinian history, absolutely nothing at all to rival the record of Zionist terror.”


        Said proclaimed himself “horrified” by the terrorist acts that “Palestinian men and women . . . were driven to do.” But all blame ultimately rested with Israel, which had “literally produced, manufactured . . . the ‘terrorist.’” ....
        ....

        This bitter ender’s position was, of course, phrased in terms chosen to sound idealistic. In that sense it was characteristic of Said’s oeuvre and of the movement of which he was such a critical part. Leftism is the stance of those who aspire to make the world a better place, according to their own view, through political action. For roughly a century its modal idea was Marxism, which identified the proletariat as the engine of redemption, a choice that resonated with the age-old Christian belief that the meek shall inherit the earth. As the twentieth century wore on, however, Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Nelson Mandela displaced Joe Hill, Mother Bloor, and Henry Wallace as objects of veneration. People of color and strugglers against colonial oppression stirred the hearts of idealists more than leaders of strikes and fighters for a fair day’s pay. Once, Zionism had tapped into that older leftism, seeing itself as a workers’ movement. But instead in the latter twentieth century—and in considerable part thanks to the impact of Edward Said—it became redefined as a movement of white people competing for land with people of color. This transformation meant that from then on the left would be aligned overwhelmingly and ardently against Israel.
        ...
        http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/a...ip-edward-said


        Bottom line Said is the source of the political straightjacket endorsed and applied by academia, the mainstream media, and the West's elites to blame it all on the West/USA~"colonialism" and let Islam and (most) Muslims "off the hook" of responsibility for their violent actions. Said was just the "credible" source the Left/Liberal/regressives were needing to support this part of their anti-capitalist/anti-West/anti-Colonialsit agenda of how to deal with, think about and treat the Middle East and the issues arising from there.


        Since Said was selective, non-objective, distortive and dishonest on his scholarship and sources, there is a parallel transference to his followers of the past near forty years. These include many of the "genuine experts" Sergio has cited. Reflect the bias of the other side of the coin so to speak.
        Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
        TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
        Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *

        Comment


        • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
          It seems reasonable you did not read the full article, or did not understand it, or are obstructing the issue. For your sake, and more so the many readers/viewers here, I'll present some more of the relevant parts of the article.

          Since Said was selective, non-objective, distortive and dishonest on his scholarship and sources, there is a parallel transference to his followers of the past near forty years. These include many of the "genuine experts" Sergio has cited. Reflect the bias of the other side of the coin so to speak.
          Once again - you asked for some names of people I thought were credible alternatives to the clowns that you post. Nowhere did I mention Edward Said. The only person who brought up Said was you. Presumably the honest thing for you to do is at least acknowledge that fact and then to say what exact relevance there is by responding to what I said by criticising Said. If you feel that one of the people I have mentioned is biased or pro-Islamist or that one of their articles or books is flawed because of that then pick a specific piece of their work and critique it. Of course given that you said you have not heard of them much less read them that would be somewhat tricky.

          All pointless as can be seen as instead of responding to what is said you go spiralling off to avoid the point. Do not worry I am sure there will be a Muslim scare story along soon to get you riled up and back on track.
          Last edited by Sergio; 31 Aug 15, 13:44.
          "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
          G.B Shaw

          "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
          Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sergio View Post
            Once again - you asked for some names of people I thought were credible alternatives to the clowns that you post. Nowhere did I mention Edward Said. The only person who brought up Said was you. Presumably the honest thing for you to do is at least acknowledge that fact and then to say what exact relevance there is by responding to what I said by criticising Said. If you feel that one of the people I have mentioned is biased or pro-Islamist or that one of their articles or books is flawed because of that then pick a specific piece of their work and critique it. Of course given that you said you have not heard of them much less read them that would be somewhat tricky.

            All pointless as can be seen as instead of responding to what is said you go spiralling off to avoid the point. Do not worry I am sure there will be a Muslim scare story along soon to get you riled up and back on track.
            This recent round of posts starts about #602 on the 25th and there have been over 2000 views since then. Likely a few others are looking in and following this exchange besides you and I. I'm posting more to them than you, especially since you are a locked in Leftest regressive mindset.

            Said established the pattern of political Left bias and indoctrination in how to politically correctly view and discuss Islam and the Middle East and your posts consistantly fit that pattern. You snide/snark "... I am sure there will be a Muslim scare story along soon ..." illustrates this and reveals your non-objective position on Islam/Jihad.

            I haven't time to read your sources, especially since it's likely they share the fraud and bias of the past 35+ years Said influence. That is what the above article is about, and again for the benefit of others and to shed light on what looks to be your perspective of views and "information" sources.

            When I have time to squander and inclination I might "google" those names and reviews of their writings to see if they are anything other than Leftist apologetic propaganda (which is what you have usually provided on this topic).
            Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
            TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
            Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *

            Comment


            • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
              This recent round of posts starts about #602 on the 25th and there have been over 2000 views since then. Likely a few others are looking in and following this exchange besides you and I. I'm posting more to them than you, especially since you are a locked in Leftest regressive mindset.

              Said established the pattern of political Left bias and indoctrination in how to politically correctly view and discuss Islam and the Middle East and your posts consistantly fit that pattern. You snide/snark "... I am sure there will be a Muslim scare story along soon ..." illustrates this and reveals your non-objective position on Islam/Jihad.

              I haven't time to read your sources, especially since it's likely they share the fraud and bias of the past 35+ years Said influence. That is what the above article is about, and again for the benefit of others and to shed light on what looks to be your perspective of views and "information" sources.

              When I have time to squander and inclination I might "google" those names and reviews of their writings to see if they are anything other than Leftist apologetic propaganda (which is what you have usually provided on this topic).
              In other words you brought up someone I did not to have a dig at the people I actually did mention as well as me? And not only can you not criticise them, because you have not heard of them or read them, but you think that discussing an interpretation of Edward Said is relevant to people you know nothing about?

              Anyways have a rep for the latest exchange as during it I was at least reminded of Lewis Black's bit on Beck's Nazi tourette's.
              "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
              G.B Shaw

              "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
              Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

              Comment


              • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                Workers of the World Unite!

                Join us under the banner of Islamic Jihad as we counter the Evil Western Colonial Capitalist Satans and provide economic justice, social justice, political justice and Equal Rights and Freedoms, tolerance under the banner of Islamic Jihad, the new Caliphate!

                Such we see in the territory of the New Islamic State/ISIS/ISIL where only the;

                Homosexuals and other deviants are tortured, mutilated, butchered and murdered.

                Only the improper Muslims are tortured, mutilated, butchered and murdered.

                Only the Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslims are tortured, mutilated, butchered and murdered, or enslved, especially as sexual slaves.

                Only any one else we get out hands on are tortured, mutilated, butchered and murdered.

                Yup, such educated and enlightened readers/posters here such as "Sergio" and "E.D.Morel"; heavy endoctrinated, brainwashed, and programed with obsolete, outdated, disproved "marxist-lite" Leftist views and perceptions (unforturnately they aren't alone here ) are trying to suggest that "Religion" isn't a key factor despite the FACT that the Islamic-Jihadists consistently cite "chapter and verse" from Koran and other Islamic scripture/dogma(fourteen centuries old and far from updated/reformed) when they do the "people's justice" they do.

                Are these two, and others like them, really so ignorant and clueless, or are they really that blindly programmed, or are they intentionally dis-informing propagandists for the evil of Islamic Jihad?

                I can see where only one, or more, of those three applications apply.
                If you don't understand what other posters are saying that's OK, just ask them to clarify in more simple language, but when you attribute opinions and views to me that are the opposite of what I have been saying it makes you look stupid.
                The liberal view is that people should have freedom of choice and freedom of expression so it strongly opposes the imposition of religious doctrine on the laws of a state. It also strongly supports gay rights, women's rights and the right of the individual over the power of the state in general.
                Socialism is a different thing; it is a system in which the rights of the individual are subservient to the power of the state. Therefore Socialism and liberalism are incompatible.
                The liberal view is most opposed to ISIS and what it stands for.

                The conservative Christian fundamentalist right has some things in common with Fundamentalist Islam; they both seek to legislate as to how people live their private lives, what they do in their bedroom and with whom they do it. They are also both opposed to gay rights.

                You use words like Progressive as if it's a bad thing. A progressive is someone who seeks social change, usually from within the system; i.e. progressively. That means gay rights now, civil rights in the 1960's, the end of slavery in the 1860's. It does not mean that they are proponents of any particular economic model; i.e. socialist or free market capitalist.

                If you want to be taken seriously you need to be more precise in what you say and in the words and phraseology you use. Your writing is lazy and sloppy and therefore overly long and unclear.
                "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their
                validity." - Abraham Lincoln.
                "Nothing's going to change while one side it lying about the cause and the other is lying about the solution" - Me

                Comment


                • (Archiving to find easier next time ...)

                  There is a Catch 22 here in that what was said to Muhammad by Allah can't be changed and the last of the revelations is very anti non-Muslim. The Koran is not arranged in order of revelation, but roughly longest to shortest of the chapters/Surah. Any later revelation that contradicts an earlier one is the one that was to apply, abrogation. Here's a link to the chronological order of the Koran;
                  http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Chronologi...f_the_Qur%27an

                  Some of the relating passages of the Koran, addressing the mandate of (physical)Jihad(Holy War) and rewards for engaging in such, etc.;

                  [2.154] And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.
                  [2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.
                  [4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.
                  [4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.
                  [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
                  [5.32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
                  [5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
                  [8.38] Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.
                  [8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
                  [8.60] And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
                  [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
                  [9.36] Surely the number of months with Allah is twelve months in Allah's ordinance since the day when He created the heavens and the earth, of these four being sacred; that is the right reckoning; therefore be not unjust to yourselves regarding them, and fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
                  [33.26] And He drove down those of the followers of the Book who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive another part.
                  [33.27] And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things.
                  [47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
                  [47.5] He will guide them and improve their condition.
                  [47.6] And cause them to enter the garden which He has made known to them.
                  http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html
                  Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
                  TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                  Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *

                  Comment


                  • Another archive ...

                    The Muslims performing the so-called "terrorist" actions refer to what they do as Jihad, and anyone being honest about Islam would acknowledge that there are different forms of Jihad. These Islamists/Jihadists view themselves as fundamentalists of Islam and true followers Muhammad's example and command;

                    "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah."

                    From;
                    Book 001, Number 0033:
                    It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.
                    http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religiou...t.php#001.0033

                    One may find Numbers 0030, 0031, 0032 of related interest as well.
                    Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
                    TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                    Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Paddybhoy View Post
                      Clicked one of these links at random for a laugh;

                      http://nationalreport.net/city-michi...nt-sharia-law/


                      National Report is a spoof/satirical news site, as can be seen by their disclaimer.

                      http://nationalreport.net/disclaimer/

                      Pathetic
                      Only one out of twelve, not bad. Did you try the others? Huff Post likely more your style. As I said, trying to provide a range for everyone ...
                      Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
                      TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                      Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                        Only one out of twelve, not bad. Did you try the others? Huff Post likely more your style. As I said, trying to provide a range for everyone ...

                        Comment


                        • ^ We can always depend upon you for intelligent, mature, and informative posts for our readers.
                          Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
                          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                          Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                            ^ We can always depend upon you for intelligent, mature, and informative posts for our readers.
                            And we can depend on you to post garbage and try to pass it off as fact.

                            Comment

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