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  • Originally posted by Salinator View Post
    What does any of that has to do with Jihad or GWOT?
    Islam, along with GWOT is in the title of the thread, therefore,a discussion of comparing criminals from different faiths is open. If this thread was simply labeled GWOT, how to confront terrorists, then you wouldn't see my previous response.

    Comment


    • Salinator,

      Terrorists can be Muslim, Jewish, Atheist. Thats my view, you can go ahead and disagree with it, it won't bother me.

      I'm not going to elaborate any further on the side point of the fact that criminals/terrorists can be non Muslims, I made my point.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
        G David Bock

        The following is a counter argument to the view that Islam, or for that matter, any of the three religions of Abraham are to blame for criminal activities or bad deeds. There is, as I(others as well) have pointed out before, factual evidence that followers from other religions commit crimes, and crimes of the worst kind,



        http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Je...ed-kids-352170

        NEW YORK - A New York rabbi and three others were indicted for stealing over $12.4 million in public aid for disabled pre-schoolers and using it to spruce up their homes, get catering discounts and fund a relative's cosmetics business, authorities said on Tuesday.

        The four men, who had ties to one of the city's largest providers of special education services for disabled pre-schoolers, were due in court on Tuesday on criminal charges in a 42-count indictment, including grand larceny, identity theft, and falsifying business records, Queens District Attorney Richard Brown said in a statement.

        If convicted, each faces up to 25 years in prison.



        http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1577025

        A man who admitted with conspiring with a New Jersey rabbi to kill the clergyman's wife is scheduled to be released from prison after serving about 14 years in prison.
        Leonard Jenoff, who admitted to brutally killing Carol Neulander with a metal pipe along with accomplice Paul Daniels, is scheduled to be released next month....


        http://nypost.com/2014/05/16/orthodo...ium=SocialFlow


        Orthodox Jewish man admits to sex 8 times with teen boy

        An Orthodox Jewish man pleaded guilty to sex abuse charges Friday in a deal that lets him serve as little as three months behind bars — ending a case that the Brooklyn district attorney had made a priority.
        Baruch Lebovits, 62, answered “Yes” eight times as Brooklyn Supreme Court Judge Mark Dwyer asked him whether he had engaged in oral sex with a teenage boy on eight different occasions in 2004 and 2005.
        The case against Lebovits became a political hot potato in the 2013 race for Brooklyn district attorney when then-DA candidate Ken Thompson sent then-DA Charles Hynes a letter in November asking that no plea deal be given to Lebovits before Thompson took office.
        What is your opinion on the role of religion in many of these societies and how it is a source of conflict? Take Pakistan, for example, what are your thoughts on the role that religion has played since independence? Personally I think it is a major factor, although the political decisions involved to use religious fanatics against India as part of a proxy war have played a massive role too.

        Bock is a fanatic. He hates Islam and blames Muslims for the conflicts (he has said so on these forums, so despite what he says that is where he stands). However, you repeatedly post in defence of all religions - which is your right. But how about branching out a bit? In all honesty I have found myself in the same boat at times. Intend not to post on these things but the bias, bigotry and sheer ignorance makes me want to challenge it.
        "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
        G.B Shaw

        "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
        Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sergio View Post
          What is your opinion on the role of religion in many of these societies and how it is a source of conflict?


          Take Pakistan, for example, what are your thoughts on the role that religion has played since independence? Personally I think it is a major factor, although the political decisions involved to use religious fanatics against India as part of a proxy war have played a massive role too.
          I can understand if one looks at a certain passages in the Quran, they could then become influenced by it, weather good or bad. I fully admit that folks can be influenced to do bad deeds because of what they feel the Quran is telling them to do. That being said, part of my argument on why religion is not to blame for societies ills is simply because all one has to do is look at societies such as North Korea, the NK regime has been responsible for committing bad deeds. You can say the same about Irans clerical regime, but then again, certain societies, both past and present, which have religious influences have done plenty of good for the world.

          I believe you have previously stated you're an atheist. As an atheist, would you not blame human nature before religions for certain crimes? If you're answer is yes it doesn't have to translate into blaming Atheists/religious folks for bad deeds, but rather human nature.

          In Pakistan, one can note some areas where folks are getting on well. But this is of course rare. Pakistan is an interesting case, The religious extremists in Pakistan are IMO, greedy, power seeking adults taking advantage of what mostly amounts to disenfranchised youths, for example, training these youngsters to carry out attacks on nations such as India, one can note the 2008 Mumbai attacks. During the 2008 Mumbai attacks, a few of the terrorists(two young teens) were walking around the Taj Mahal Hotel, the teens stopped for a moment in awe of the large screen tvs displayed in one floors lobby, as they come from a poor area in Pakistan , then the video proceeded to show an adults voice on a cell phone (coming from somewhere in Pakistan) telling the kids to go kill folks.

          Now, obv one can note that adults can be recruited into terrorist organizations as well, but if you look at the majority of recruits , most of them are poor uneducated youngsters that are being taken advantage of. Which is, IMO similar to what is happening in North Korea with youngsters in the North being brainwashed by Kims regime. So in turn South Korea will take in refugees from the North and enter them into a program that will get them ready for the challenges of facing a new life in the South.

          While Pakistan lacks the resources/ability that South Korea has to tackle extremism, I feel a solution would be for Pakistan to try and emulate what South Korea is doing wrt refugees from North Korea.
          Last edited by Taieb el-Okbi; 08 Jun 14, 13:34.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
            Salinator,

            Terrorists can be Muslim, Jewish, Atheist.
            True, very true, indeed some even call themselves Christian, BUT the issue is that most at the moment appear to be Jihadis for Islam - and the perishers are all over the place.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
              During the 2008 Mumbai attacks, a few of the terrorists(two young teens) were walking around the Taj Mahal Hotel, the teens stopped for a moment in awe of the large screen tvs displayed in one floors lobby, as they come from a poor area in Pakistan , then the video proceeded to show an adults voice on a cell phone (coming from somewhere in Pakistan) telling the kids to go kill folks.
              Are you saying that the attackers of the 2008 Mumbai attacks were instructed by big screen TVs? What is your source of this information? Do you have evidence of this? Also, they could witness the same extravagance in Karachi or Islamabad so...

              The last survivor of the terrorists was 21 when the attack occurred. Actually not very young when you consider that younger youths carry out attacks against NATO in Afghanistan. Also, I think that not all these extremists are motivated by jihad but my money. They believe that they can conduct a well planned attack, kill some people and get paid, and never have to pick up a weapon again. Safe jihad without the final martyrdom.
              The Europa Barbarorum II team [M2TW] needs YOUR HELP NOW HERE!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
                Islam, along with GWOT is in the title of the thread, therefore,a discussion of comparing criminals from different faiths is open. If this thread was simply labeled GWOT, how to confront terrorists, then you wouldn't see my previous response.
                I still don't see how your post about some Jewish criminals have to do with Islam-Jihad-GWOT.

                Originally posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
                Salinator,

                Terrorists can be Muslim, Jewish, Atheist. Thats my view, you can go ahead and disagree with it, it won't bother me.
                So far as I know, no Jew or Atheist practice Islam. So again, what does that have to do with Islam-Jihad-GWOT.

                I'm not going to elaborate any further on the side point of the fact that criminals/terrorists can be non Muslims, I made my point.
                Sure. But at last look, it is Muslims declaring Jihad, and the ones we are hunting for in the GWOT are packing Korans, not Bibles or Torahs.
                Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

                Prayers.

                BoRG

                http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Frtigern View Post
                  Are you saying that the attackers of the 2008 Mumbai attacks were instructed by big screen TVs? What is your source of this information? Do you have evidence of this? Also, they could witness the same extravagance in Karachi or Islamabad so...

                  The last survivor of the terrorists was 21 when the attack occurred. Actually not very young when you consider that younger youths carry out attacks against NATO in Afghanistan. Also, I think that not all these extremists are motivated by jihad but my money. They believe that they can conduct a well planned attack, kill some people and get paid, and never have to pick up a weapon again. Safe jihad without the final martyrdom.
                  No he did not say that at all.
                  "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                  G.B Shaw

                  "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                  Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Wooden Wonder View Post
                    True, very true, indeed some even call themselves Christian, BUT the issue is that most at the moment appear to be Jihadis for Islam - and the perishers are all over the place.
                    WW,

                    I agree that when it comes to international terrorism, that most likely Islamic terrorists are in the lead when it comes to # of attacks and deaths. Its very important that we also keep in mind the statistics. 1.7 billion Muslims is a massive #, its no wonder that there are indeed more Muslim terrorists then that of Jehovah witness terrorists. We talked before about how human error can be found anywhere, but due to sheer volume, there is going to bean increased possibility that we will find more Muslim terrorists then that of Jehovah witnesses. Now, one may say, well what about Buddhists, there are so many of them, so where are the Buddhist terrorists? As most folks view it, Buddhists are generally looked upon as this peaceful group of folks who love the world(and the great majority of Buddhists are peaceful IMO) . Yet, the facts are that some Buddhists have been involved in crime/terrorism.

                    This thread uses the word, terrorism, "terrorism" has an interesting definition, when I think of a terrorist, I think of a person trying to kill civilians by blowing up a building of civilians. Now at the same time, (this is my view) I view a thief who terrorizes an old lady for her money as being a terrorist, how many of those lowlife thief s are right here in the USA? Plus, let us not forget about the ruthless Mexican drug cartels, I have a thread about those folks in Politics, and if we include the attacks that Mexican drug cartels carry out as being "terror attacks"(which we should), then an argument can be made that its a possibility that there are more non Islamic terrorists then Islamic terrorists. Either way, two wrongs don't make a right, fact is that Islamic terrorists do exist, and I hope that the world can crush groups like AQ, AQ has been around for about 25 years, I dont want to see them make the 30 year mark. The most important aspect to crushing AQ is to align with the Muslims who want to see AQ destroyed, and there are plenty of them.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Frtigern View Post
                      Are you saying that the attackers of the 2008 Mumbai attacks were instructed by big screen TVs? What is your source of this information? Do you have evidence of this? Also, they could witness the same extravagance in Karachi or Islamabad so...



                      The last survivor of the terrorists was 21 when the attack occurred. Actually not very young when you consider that younger youths carry out attacks against NATO in Afghanistan. Also, I think that not all these extremists are motivated by jihad but my money. They believe that they can conduct a well planned attack, kill some people and get paid, and never have to pick up a weapon again. Safe jihad without the final martyrdom.
                      My source was a documentary produced by CNN, which actually showed two kids in the Taj hotel during the attacks, glaring in awe at a large screen tv before being given the command to go kill folks, not by the TV, but from orders given by an adult as I said in my previous post. And I agree that money plays a role for these folks, a very crucial role, as it does for many criminals.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Salinator View Post
                        I still don't see how your post about some Jewish criminals have to do with Islam-Jihad-GWOT.


                        So far as I know, no Jew or Atheist practice Islam. So again, what does that have to do with Islam-Jihad-GWOT.


                        Sure. But at last look, it is Muslims declaring Jihad, and the ones we are hunting for in the GWOT are packing Korans, not Bibles or Torahs.
                        "Muslims declaing Jihad"

                        Jihad is open to interpretation, just because AQ folks say they are doing Jihad, doesn't mean that they are actually doing it correctly, and this isnt something to be laughed at, its serious. Look up the definition of Jihad and what it means, no matter what is posted itt, there are numerous interpretations(supported by Quran, Hadith, Sunnah,) of what Jihad actually is, and it doesn't have to be violence against innocents.

                        We already know that some Muslims carry out attacks in what they believe is Jihad, the thing is, if a Muslim kills an innocent civilian, then they are going against the most important messages of Islam, many Muslims will tell you this.

                        Another false notion of this thread is how the OP defines Jihad, not to mention how the OP needs to learn how to separate the words terrorism and Islam. Terrorism is not part of Islam, just as terrorism is not part of Christianity. Whats actually going on here is we have leaders of groups like Al Qaeda and the Haqqini network who use religion as a tool to recruit folks so they(AQ leaders) can gain wealth. More people need to realize that groups like Al Qaeda, Boko Haram , Taliban, are more like mobsters as opposed to Muslims. And as mentioned before, AQ like minded groups represent a tiny # of folks in proportion to the # of Muslims worldwide.

                        Comment


                        • The "global war on terror" is not a war on Islam, OP ought to get Islam(Jihad as well) out of the thread title.

                          Facts are the vast majority of Muslims dont view Jihad as attacks against innocent civilians such as blowing up buildings of random Muslims and or non Muslims, otherwise the world would have been gone years ago.

                          Comment


                          • Taieb el-Okbi - The problem is that a significant minority hold to what the 'Prophet' is recorded as having said and done after he moved to Medina. During that part of his life he was by most accounts a bit of a - well, let us just say he was at the centre of quite a lot of killing and booty collecting.

                            This is also a bit of an issue with the more 'peaceful' Muslims and places many on the sidelines, perhaps doing not much more than tut-tutting, when the Jihadi guys go to 'physical' war.

                            ps. There is a saying that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The problem is that this is also the case when kids and old folk get caught up in the violence.
                            Last edited by Wooden Wonder; 09 Jun 14, 15:16.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
                              The "global war on terror" is not a war on Islam, OP ought to get Islam(Jihad as well) out of the thread title.

                              Facts are the vast majority of Muslims dont view Jihad as attacks against innocent civilians such as blowing up buildings of random Muslims and or non Muslims, otherwise the world would have been gone years ago.
                              You want a thread focused on "terrorism" in general, violence in general, evil in general, etc. than start one of you own "Jihad John". The title and OP are there for a purpose as spelled out in the posts of the first couple of pages of this thread, mainly that in this author's opinion GWOT was too generic and "politically correct" in defining the nature of the main enemy being fought and misleading as to why we are fighting them. Or to be more precise, why they are fighting us.

                              In the course of describing Islam and the concept of Jihad, it is pointed out that there is a personal and spiritual "jihad", inner struggle of faith; AND there is a physical Jihad, the mandate from Allah to convert the world to Islam using whatever force is necessary as exampled by Muhammad in the final years of his "ministry".

                              Beginning here at post #12 we get an Islamic expert's opinion on Physical Jihad, the war on the infidels/non-believers...
                              http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...2&postcount=12
                              QUOTE in part;
                              Jihad in the Qur'an and Sunnah
                              By SHEIKH ABDULLAH BIN MUHAMMAD BIN HUMAID
                              http://www.islamworld.net/jihad.html

                              [From the "Publisher's Note"/Introduction]

                              But, as regards the reward and blessing, there is one deed which is very great in comparison to all the acts of worship and all the good deeds-and that is Jihad!
                              ....

                              In this article, Sheikh 'Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Humaid, ex-Chief Justice of Saudi Arabia, has presented Jihad in the light of Qur'an and Sunna. Never before such an article was seen, describing Jihad in its true colours-so heart evoking and encouraging! May Allah bless him with all His Blessings for all times.

                              Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, the translator of the Noble Qur'an and the Sahih AlBukhari, has translated this article from Arabic to the English language with all its fervor and feelings. May Allah reward him with best of His Rewards.

                              We are publishing this article and recommend every Muslim not only to read it himself but to offer every other Muslim brother within his read.

                              May Allah shower His Blessings on everyone of us- Ameen !
                              ....
                              Islamworld.net appears to no longer be a functioning website, and a search reveals this article may be found on several others, but will take some searching at each of those to actually nail it down. In meantime, here's an abridged version;
                              http://www.hraicjk.org/jihad_in_the_...nd_sunnah.html

                              Taieb/Jihad John - for myself and many others, could care a gnats fart if AQ and other Jihadis are interpreting the koran correctly or not. Typical "arab" response to try and split-hairs on this obscure point. What matters is that those whom engage in the violence invoke Allah's name and cite the supporting passages from the Koran and other Islamic scripture. The purpose of this thread was to present that material for examination in order to better understand the mindset and motivations of Jihadists, in order to better counter them.

                              All too typically, you and others like "Sergio" have totally mis-gauged and incorrectly assessed myself and the intent of this thread. While I have a strong dislike for Islamic dogma and find little beneficial purpose to it, I do not hate all Muslims nor wish ill upon them. It's only the Jihadis and other fundamentalists whom engage violence upon others in the "name of Allah" whom I hate with extreme prejudice.

                              As I oft said already, I'd wager about half of that 1.7 billion would leave Islam and change religion, or go for no religion, if the circumstances where they lived would allow such without injury or death for the apostasy as proscribed by Islamic dogma and Sharia.
                              Last edited by G David Bock; 09 Jun 14, 21:13.

                              Comment


                              • /\ This /\. This constant litany of global terrorism is not about Islam is utter tripe.
                                Credo quia absurdum.


                                Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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