Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Islam - Jihad - GWOT

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Islam/Christianity are religions of Peace and Justice

    The Quran says righteous Jews and Christians can have rewards with their lord. This is the message of equality that the Quran does preach by its own words,


    Quran 2:62 Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans, those who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

    This verse is clear, the verse literally says Jews or Christians, or Sabeans(in modern terms this can actually in part mean Atheist) who are righteous will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

    There is absolutely no proof to debunk the above, it very well may be debated but there is no way of suggesting the above can never be true.


    The Bible also brings about a message of equality,

    Matthew 22:37-40

    Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


    Love your neighbor could be anyone, any religion and there is no proof to actually suggest otherwise. It can be debated but there is absolutely no full proof to outright debunk the view that Love your neighbor means people of other religions

    Comment


    • As a follower of Christ , I know that thru history there were times when Christians were persecuted by others. In a few ways, the gospel of Luke clearly states self defense is allowed in this type of case, that is when ones religion is facing extinction you must defend peace.

      When "peace" was under attack as outlined in the Quran, (this was the case in Mecca with the aristocrats who wanted no part of Muhammad and his followers and the message of equality which the Quran clearly preaches) it was the duty of the Muslims to protect and uphold peace.

      Indeed, according to other verses, even if a Muslim deemed someone an infidel, according to the Quran, he is still obligated to:

      1. Behave with courtesy :
      Consider, for instance, the following verse, which is supposed to instruct Muslims as to how they should deal with non-Muslims in the midst of hostilities (such as war):


      Quran 9:6 And if any of the Idolatries (who are fighting you) seeks thy protection, grant him protection, so that he might [be able to] hear the word of God [from thee]; and thereupon convey him to a place where he can feel secure:

      If Muslims are to behave with such clemency and magnanimity vis-a-vis the infidel during times of war and conflict, how much more should be expected of their interactions with non-Muslims during times of peace?




      [I]2. Respect his freedom of choice to be a "Disbeliever" - as this is a right bestowed upon humanity by God:

      Quran 18:29 proclaims, "The truth is from your Lord": it is the free will of any person to believe (in God) or to be an Infidel (Un believer).

      3. Even if a Muslim should be convinced that someone is a non-believer, still he must accept that his fate is in the hands of God alone, since no one human can condemn another - this must be left to the judgment of God.
      Quran 88:25-26 for behold, unto (ONLY) Us (means God) will be their return, Then it will be for (ONLY) Us to Judge (humans).


      Quran 22:17 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians (can mean an ancient religion or people with no specific religion), Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God (alone) is witness of all things.

      So, during the time of Muhammad. when the Aristocrats of Mecca broke the theory that "no one human can condemn another" by all means it became a necessity for thee followers of Muhammad to defend peace against those whom seek to incite violence/division


      Furthermore the Achtiname of Muhammad shows that Muslims are to treat Christian's with dignity and respect, and allow them to build/repair churches. The Achtiname contains a seal which represents M's hand.

      "This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. --Achtiname of Muhammad
      Last edited by Taieb el-Okbi; 24 Mar 14, 09:05.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sergio View Post
        Wrong once again - see my first post. My first point was as to the importance of the veracity of the allegations. That that is the main point - by using such sources you automatically raise an issue, be it of misreporting, making stuff up or slanted presentation. In each subsequent post I have said atrocities are taking place. What I have asked is is the context of this correct as well as highlighted the issue of Shoebat.

        You want to use sources and sites like that - then do not be surprised when people point out that the guy is a known fraud.

        But since it all fits into a wider Islam is Nazism spiel who needs accuracy.
        The issue is if the video presented is "fraud". Aledged traits of the presenter (Shoebat) are secondary, unless one is engaging in standard tactics of disinformation (attack the messenger, not the message).

        If you compare content of NAZI ideology and Islamic Dogma elated to Jihad and history of Islamic conquest, the similarities are obvious. Not to mention the common cause both found in WWII, or Hitler's admissions of admiration for Islam.
        TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

        Comment


        • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
          The issue is if the video presented is "fraud". Aledged traits of the presenter (Shoebat) are secondary, unless one is engaging in standard tactics of disinformation (attack the messenger, not the message).

          If you compare content of NAZI ideology and Islamic Dogma elated to Jihad and history of Islamic conquest, the similarities are obvious. Not to mention the common cause both found in WWII, or Hitler's admissions of admiration for Islam.
          The "Islamic Dogma", just imagine if I created a thread going on and on about a "Jewish Dogma" relating to something negative.

          Now that you continue to prove Godwins law, and you continue to create a fictional story that Islam is somehow a threat to the USA, or a threat to the civilized word. Well David, the facts are some folks think Jews control the media, or that Jews control world banking, some folks think Islam and Nazism are similar. The problem with your argument David, is that you would never win enough votes if you were to run for political office here in the USA. Folks dont take to kindly to people who single out religions and claim that one religion is a threat to the world.



          The German version of "Mein Kampf" notes Arabs as subhuman

          here is what Hitler had to say irt Arabs/Muslims

          We shall continue to make disturbances in the Far East and in Arabia. Let us think as men and let us see in these peoples at best lacquered half-apes who are anxious to experience the lash

          Many heroic Muslims fought against Hitler and the axis powers. You can find Muslims in the British Indian Army, Free French forces during WW2, the French resistance, North Africa, etc etc. In Axis occupied Albania, Muslims risked life to protect Jews, they did so in other areas as well including a Paris Mosque. Where a righteous Muslim Imam risked his own life to protect many Jews and french resistance fighters.

          Here is an example of a Muslim woman, who had tremendous bravery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noor_Inayat_Khan

          On 11 September 1944, Noor and three other SOE agents from Karlsruhe prison, Yolande Beekman, Eliane Plewman and Madeleine Damerment, were moved to the Dachau Concentration Camp. In the early hours of the morning of 13 September 1944, the four women were executed by a shot to the back of the head. Their bodies were immediately burned in the crematorium. An anonymous Dutch prisoner emerging in 1958 contended that Noor was cruelly beaten by a high-ranking SS officer named Wilhelm Ruppert before being shot from behind, which may have been the actual cause of her death.[16] She may also have been sexually assaulted while in custody. Her last word has been recorded as, 'liberté'

          Noor Inayat Khan and the many heroic Muslims who worked against Hitler during WW2 crushes your ludicrous(and now offensive views, now that you bring in a Islam- Nazi comparison) extremist, anti Islam views.
          Last edited by Taieb el-Okbi; 24 Mar 14, 11:15.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
            David, this whole thread you have constantly been criticizing one religion, Islam, and you have been doing so for 5 straight years. Well Im not here to defend Islam nor do I take offense from your post. Yet, I would like to understand how you, David, could be so seemingly afraid of one religion while disregarding the controversies with other religions. Dont me get wrong the UKIP party in England for example, is known for its highly critical views of Islam. Yet they dont really hold that much clout in the UK.

            Yadda, yadda, yadda
            When I have Time i might read thru this and the folloowing posts you've made. but a quick scan shows your "Chrislam" views are nothing new here and have been covered in the past pages.

            More to the point, the title and opening posts here define what this thread is about. "Global War On Terror(ism)" is an inaccurate and misleading term since the focus/target was Islamic Jihad. It is this portion of Islamic Dogma and it's followers/practitioners whom this thread is focused upon, so obviously, a bit of a slant here.

            No intention or purpose to sugar coat Islam in it's other aspects, nor engage much in comparative religions, leave that for some of there thread. Perhaps you'd like to start one. And while engaging in the perspective that "all religions deserve respect and are equal" please explain why we should not revive the old Aztec religion.

            BTW, while quoting from the Quran, note that many pages back we established the chronology of the surras/chapters in the K/Q and some being delivered later supersede the earlier ones. Then there are the expansions of the Haddith that aply, including Mohhammad's near final instructions to 'Fight all mankind until all have converted to Islam'.

            I doubt I'll change your mind, you (and Sergio) won't change mine, but rather lay it out for the readers to decide for themselves.
            TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

            Comment


            • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
              When I have Time i might read thru this and the folloowing posts you've made. but a quick scan shows your "Chrislam" views are nothing new here and have been covered in the past pages.

              More to the point, the title and opening posts here define what this thread is about. "Global War On Terror(ism)" is an inaccurate and misleading term since the focus/target was Islamic Jihad. It is this portion of Islamic Dogma and it's followers/practitioners whom this thread is focused upon, so obviously, a bit of a slant here.

              No intention or purpose to sugar coat Islam in it's other aspects, nor engage much in comparative religions, leave that for some of there thread. Perhaps you'd like to start one. And while engaging in the perspective that "all religions deserve respect and are equal" please explain why we should not revive the old Aztec religion.

              BTW, while quoting from the Quran, note that many pages back we established the chronology of the surras/chapters in the K/Q and some being delivered later supersede the earlier ones. Then there are the expansions of the Haddith that aply, including Mohhammad's near final instructions to 'Fight all mankind until all have converted to Islam'.

              I doubt I'll change your mind, you (and Sergio) won't change mine, but rather lay it out for the readers to decide for themselves.

              "Yadda yadda yadda"

              Dont worry Dave Im done with replying to this thread, just understand that you may receive alot of negative criticism if you were to go Public(for example run for political office) with your many, many interesting viewpoints itt.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
                The "Islamic Dogma", just imagine if I created a thread going on and on about a "Jewish Dogma"

                Now that you continue to prove Godwins law, and you continue to create a fictional story that Islam is somehow a threat to the USA, or a threat to the civilized word. Well David, the facts are some folks think Jews control the media, or that Jews control world banking, some folks think Islam and Nazism are similar. The problem with your argument David, is that you would never win enough votes if you were to run for political office here in the USA. Folks dont take to kindly to people who single out religions and claim that one religion is a threat to the world.

                Any religious scripture that spells out what to believe and how to live within the tenants of that religion is a dogma. If you want, please do create a thread on "Jewish dogma". (BTW, your focus on the Jews is a subconscious revelation of whom/what you really are.)

                You also continue to engage in the distortion and disinformation of misrepresenting my views and opinions regarding a select faction within Islam as advocacy for some sort of Pogrom against Muslims in general. I't only the Islamic "Physical" Jihadists I have issue wish and desire to "extinguished". And if Islam would clean it's own house of the violent inclined fundamentalist, we "kafirs" wouldn't mind at all.

                I've a job/work to do ... much later.
                TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                Comment


                • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                  The issue is if the video presented is "fraud". Aledged traits of the presenter (Shoebat) are secondary, unless one is engaging in standard tactics of disinformation (attack the messenger, not the message).

                  If you compare content of NAZI ideology and Islamic Dogma elated to Jihad and history of Islamic conquest, the similarities are obvious. Not to mention the common cause both found in WWII, or Hitler's admissions of admiration for Islam.
                  The issue was that you posted stuff by a well-known fraud and con artist. All I did was say that he is one and that it is better to use reliable sources. But apparently you disagree as to its importance.

                  Re the Islam Nazi common cause? Does that include the countless Muslims who fought against the Germans and Imperial Japanese? Or would you prefer to forget them? Plenty of Christians went along with the Nazis - common cause or is that different? Ever heard of Lehi and their offer?

                  I would say that there is much that is in mainstream Islam that I find utterly intolerant and abhorrent - difference is that I base that on fact, not misleading interpretations or claims.
                  "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                  G.B Shaw

                  "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                  Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sergio View Post
                    The issue was that you posted stuff by a well-known fraud and con artist. All I did was say that he is one and that it is better to use reliable sources. But apparently you disagree as to its importance.

                    Re the Islam Nazi common cause? Does that include the countless Muslims who fought against the Germans and Imperial Japanese? Or would you prefer to forget them? Plenty of Christians went along with the Nazis - common cause or is that different? Ever heard of Lehi and their offer?

                    I would say that there is much that is in mainstream Islam that I find utterly intolerant and abhorrent - difference is that I base that on fact, not misleading interpretations or claims.
                    And often when I say/reference Dogma/scripture of Islam, people like you and "Taieb el-Okbi" construe that to mean Muslims in general and whole. Like a few here, you two read into my posts what you want, not what I say.

                    BTW, I often post in other threads, things/articles from those on other issues that I might not agree with. Posting an article title and link doesn't always mean endorsement, in my case anyway. Still, the prime question remains unaddressed; "Is the video in the link a fraud/fake?"
                    TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                    Comment


                    • 25 Rules of Disinformation, 8 traits of disinformationalists;

                      http://www.pnl-nlp.org/download/propaganda/page4.htm

                      BTW, 'google'/websearch "rules of disinformation" and you'll find this list presented from a broad spectrum of political and issue/agenda sides. Unfortunately, few acknowledge the author.
                      Last edited by G David Bock; 24 Mar 14, 16:00.
                      TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                        25 Rules of Disinformation, 8 traits of disinformationalists;

                        http://www.pnl-nlp.org/download/propaganda/page4.htm

                        BTW, 'google'/websearch "rules of disinformation" and you'll find this list presented from a broad spectrum of political and issue/agenda sides. Unfortunately, few acknowledge the author.
                        You do not quite get it do you. Of all the points that you have linked to about disinformation you are the one doing them. I have agreed from the start that these scumbags are torturing, murdering and abusing people. In fact I linked to an article concerning their behaviour.

                        What I have said is that a better source avoids this - and you are the one being selective. You chose to focus only on Christian victims - given that it talks about Christian and Muslims being killed by the jihadi group why focus on just one faith. Ah yes the selective nature of it.

                        "Jihadist rebels have carried out mass executions of detainees in Syria, UN human rights investigators say.

                        The commission of inquiry's latest report documents several incidents blamed on the al-Qaeda-linked Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIS)

                        In the days and hours before their bases were overrun, ISIS fighters "conducted mass executions of detainees, thereby perpetrating war crimes", the UN report says. The number killed as well as allegations of mass graves connected to these executions remain under investigation."

                        http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26626363

                        http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.as...=#.UzHEm4XtWNo


                        They are being accused of murdering people from other rebel groups, secularists and others. Why just the focus and Muslims killing Christians slant? And after the horrors of Iraq, Afghanistan, Algeria, Nigeria and countless other places nothing that some of these Jihadi outfits do would surprise me.

                        So what exactly am I trying to convince you of (as you said in another post to Taieb)? That it is better to use reliable sources rather than a fraud and con artist.
                        "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                        G.B Shaw

                        "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                        Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

                        Comment


                        • Here's another video you two can use in your rush to defend tolerant Islam/Muslims;
                          http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...ning-incident/

                          In case you have issues with "the blaze";
                          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/new...niversity.html
                          Last edited by G David Bock; 26 Mar 14, 14:50.
                          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                          Comment


                          • David and Sergio, I think that you'd be in agreement if you looked beyond the labels. Yeah Christians are being persecuted by islam. But also are the Bahia, Women, Buddhists, Atheists and Agnostics.

                            Hell, its okay to kill anyone who doesn't who doesn't agree with them...

                            So much for the religion of 'peace'.
                            Credo quia absurdum.


                            Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                              Here's another video you two can use in your rush to defend tolerant Islam/Muslims;
                              http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...ning-incident/

                              In case you have issues with "the blaze";
                              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/new...niversity.html
                              It really is remarkable - I have posted links which show that the Islamists and Jihadis in Syria are slaughtering people, committing mass executions and have mentioned other places where they have done similar if not worse. Or were you incapable of processing that information?

                              I have also said that much of mainstream Islam (and Islamic as opposed to Islamist ideology) is abhorrent and intolerant to me. Then again so are most religions. So what am I defending?

                              What I am doing is saying that using the sources of a known con artist and fraud like him is a mistake. You have also not proven that the video depicts a Christian slaughterhouse at all. Chances are it might show the murders of a variety of people - of a number of backgrounds and religions.

                              What I will say is that your argument to show Islam as being akin to Nazism based on the links between some Muslims and Nazi Germany fails massively.

                              So since you seem to want to avoid the issue - show how Shoebat is not a fraud.
                              "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                              G.B Shaw

                              "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                              Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                                David and Sergio, I think that you'd be in agreement if you looked beyond the labels. Yeah Christians are being persecuted by islam. But also are the Bahia, Women, Buddhists, Atheists and Agnostics.

                                Hell, its okay to kill anyone who doesn't who doesn't agree with them...

                                So much for the religion of 'peace'.
                                On a textual basis alone Islam is not a religion of peace - any faith that can allow slavery is not peaceful. Of course many other religions include sickening details but that does not seem to matter to most. And they are not being persecuted by Islam as such, because that fails to take into account the variety of conflicts and issues going on. Having said that the world will be an infinitely better place when all religions is relegated to the private lives of people.

                                I would agree in many, if not most, Muslim majority societies minorities are discriminated against. But the extent varies.

                                However, where we differ I think is in ascribing the roots of all these conflicts solely to Muslims or the religion. It is more complicated than that, far more complicated. The majority of victims of these radical and violent Muslims are other Muslims who do not want to follow them.
                                Last edited by Sergio; 26 Mar 14, 15:34.
                                "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                                G.B Shaw

                                "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                                Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

                                Comment

                                Latest Topics

                                Collapse

                                Working...
                                X