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  • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
    Thought this map might be of interest;


    Shows Islamic (Jihad) expansion within first 130 years of the religion's existence.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ma..._Caliphate.svg
    Yes, but according to Islamists they do not go on the offensive, they only 'defend' - they 'defended' themselves that empire in about a 130yrs. - yeh, right - tell it to the marines Muhammad. You can't have peace without strings - Salaam does not mean a simple quid pro quo peace - it means the 'peace of submission'. Muslims view the definition of 'martyr' rather differently to most everyone else.

    Nobody felt pressured into 'converting' - they all volunteered cheerfully - again, yeh, right.

    The choices - 'Conversion', Dhimmitude which by and large meant second class status, limits to freedoms and the paying of extra taxes - or death.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
      Actions of one "fringe" individual not quite the same as that of a Jihadist org. copying NAZI methods.

      I'll support Shoebat long before ever supporting C.A.I.R.
      http://www.cair.com/

      The real story on C.A.I.R.
      http://www.anti-cair-net.org/
      There are several issues. Most importantly are the allegations true - Syria has become a charnelhouse for people of all backgrounds - and atrocities are committed by many different groups. So it would not be a surprise at all to find groups rounding people up and slaughtering them.

      The other issue with what you posted is Walid Shoebat. The man is a known fraud who has made millions conning people and claiming to be something he is not. Training law enforcement, claiming to help Christians, etc, etc. I would recommend finding more reliable sources as it means any real discussion does not get sidetracked.
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
      G.B Shaw

      "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
      Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

      Comment


      • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
        Actions of one "fringe" individual not quite the same as that of a Jihadist org. copying NAZI methods.

        I'll support Shoebat long before ever supporting C.A.I.R.
        http://www.cair.com/

        The real story on C.A.I.R.
        http://www.anti-cair-net.org/
        David, just as I have wanted to meet David Duke Supporters I have always wanted to meet a supporter of Stop Islamazation of America(in other threads you have shown support for SIOA, correct me if I'm wrong though)

        Here is a crucial fact, many folks here in the USA are not supporters of religion. I'm talking about all religions, folks like Bill Maher(who I enjoy and have seen at comedy shows) who are very much anti-religious. I would like to clear something up, are you only afraid of Islam, or all religions? I understand some folks like to claim well whens the last time a Buddhist attacked someone, well the facts are my friend, evil can be found all over the world. Here take a look,

        http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...0&postcount=82


        I'm not here to defend Islam, rather I would like to understand how you view the world. So I have yet to bring up the C.A.I.R as a source. In fact I denounce any negativity associated with the C.A.I.R. I really could care less about the C.A.I.R.

        What we need to realize David, is that the Muslims in the Middle East, the great majority of them, hold more of a disdain toward the Taliban/ Al Qaeda then we do as Americans. Do you realize, how many good Muslims have lost their loved ones to Al Qaeda scum?

        Finally its a fact that not all Muslims think alike, same with Jews and Christians, this is a massively important point.
        Last edited by Taieb el-Okbi; 21 Mar 14, 11:01.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sergio View Post
          There are several issues. Most importantly are the allegations true - Syria has become a charnelhouse for people of all backgrounds - and atrocities are committed by many different groups. So it would not be a surprise at all to find groups rounding people up and slaughtering them.

          The other issue with what you posted is Walid Shoebat. The man is a known fraud who has made millions conning people and claiming to be something he is not. Training law enforcement, claiming to help Christians, etc, etc. I would recommend finding more reliable sources as it means any real discussion does not get sidetracked.
          Would you consider CNN, MSNBC, or most other MSMs as reliable sources, free of their own slant, bias and exclusions on a subject, especially one like this?

          I get the impression you and Taieb el-Okbi are implying that Shoebat fabricated the video shown and referenced in the article I linked to. Then, again, perhaps neither of you read the link, performing source bias right off.

          While I understand the value of "source bias", however any real data researcher (analyst) would realize that even questionable sources can sometimes provide valid and accurate information/data.

          Also, unless I specifically comment and/or endorse an article link, I'm usually doing so for general consideration. I've been known to present links to sources and sides of issues/topics I don't agree with in order to assure some balance to the dialogue.
          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
            David, just as I have wanted to meet David Duke Supporters I have always wanted to meet a supporter of Stop Islamazation of America(in other threads you have shown support for SIOA, correct me if I'm wrong though)

            Here is a crucial fact, many folks here in the USA are not supporters of religion. I'm talking about all religions, folks like Bill Maher(who I enjoy and have seen at comedy shows) who are very much anti-religious. I would like to clear something up, are you only afraid of Islam, or all religions? I understand some folks like to claim well whens the last time a Buddhist attacked someone, well the facts are my friend, evil can be found all over the world. Here take a look,

            http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...0&postcount=82


            I'm not here to defend Islam, rather I would like to understand how you view the world. So I have yet to bring up the C.A.I.R as a source. In fact I denounce any negativity associated with the C.A.I.R. I really could care less about the C.A.I.R.

            What we need to realize David, is that the Muslims in the Middle East, the great majority of them, hold more of a disdain toward the Taliban/ Al Qaeda then we do as Americans. Do you realize, how many good Muslims have lost their loved ones to Al Qaeda scum?

            Finally its a fact that not all Muslims think alike, same with Jews and Christians, this is a massively important point.
            "John", if you had read this thread from the beginning and thoroughly, you'd realize that the issue I have is with the dogma and scriptures of Islam, and those (Muslims) whom seek to apply it literally. Because the dogma of Islam preaches something that is not tolerant of other religions nor allows freedom of human expression and choice, than yes I guess someone with your perspectives would say I'm "afraid of Islam".

            Let's see if you can read and comprehend the following, clearly;

            1) While I do not believe in any specific religion/dogma, and have studied most, I find that they all are not the same in concepts and application, so we are not comparing green apples to red apples but more like bananas to nuts to melons. That in mind, having been born and raised in a religion and attended enough funerals in my lifetime, I've seen where "religion" can be of value to many.

            2) While there is no religion I consider being one that I could "believe" in, I have no objection to anyone else believing in and practicing a religion so long as;
            A) They are doing such of their own free will.
            B) Are not forcing their belief upon any one else, including their children/family.
            C) Their belief and practice of their religion does not harm others or constrain their personal freedom of choice and expression.

            My study and the material I've presented in this thread shows that Islam violates all three of the above, especially "C".

            I don't "fear" Islam so much as despise the dogma and scripture and feel it serves little benefit to humanity in general. It may provide some comfort to believers, but once they impose that belief and dogma upon others it's about as positive to humanity as the NAZIs were (and I find a lot in common with Islamic dogma and NAZI dogma.)
            TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

            Comment


            • Your more patient man than I am Mr Bock. I salute you for this. God knows that I've tried talking sense into the poor lad but I fear its absolutely pointless. Personally I think he's just trolling...
              Credo quia absurdum.


              Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                Would you consider CNN, MSNBC, or most other MSMs as reliable sources, free of their own slant, bias and exclusions on a subject, especially one like this?

                I get the impression you and Taieb el-Okbi are implying that Shoebat fabricated the video shown and referenced in the article I linked to. Then, again, perhaps neither of you read the link, performing source bias right off.

                While I understand the value of "source bias", however any real data researcher (analyst) would realize that even questionable sources can sometimes provide valid and accurate information/data.

                Also, unless I specifically comment and/or endorse an article link, I'm usually doing so for general consideration. I've been known to present links to sources and sides of issues/topics I don't agree with in order to assure some balance to the dialogue.
                Walid Shoebat is a fraud, a con artist and a man who has based a business on claiming he is something that he is not. His slant is that Islam as a whole is a the problem - personally I feel all religions are a problem. But for context of a conflict you need someone whose reporting will be honest and reliable. Want selection bias - you choose to focus on Christians being killed. Not reports that said Islamists are also killing those Muslims who disagree.

                I said that rounding people up and murdering them is happening in Syria and it would be no surprise if Islamists were rounding up people and murdering them. Although you could equally have shown the reports from other groups.

                The point is rather than use Shoebat why not go for someone else. The murders could well be happening. Though the term Nazi - are the Syrian government murders Nazi?


                And whatever Taieb or whatever his name's point is it is certainly not mine. Mine is that by using such dodgy groups or people like Shoebat the point gets directed away from the proper issue - what is happening on the ground. There are numerous proper sources out there - many of them detailing massacres and brutality by the Islamists (as well as others).

                http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-backlash.html
                Last edited by Sergio; 22 Mar 14, 02:07.
                "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                G.B Shaw

                "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

                Comment


                • For those just tuning in, over the last several posts, "Sergio" and "I-B-Koel-Beiat"~"John"(Taieb el-Okbi) have just failed the test for G2 Staff position.
                  What does G2 mean?
                  http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_G2_mean
                  Staff Military
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G2_%28m...ntelligence%29
                  Military Intelligence
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_intelligence


                  No sooner did either read the first sentences of the following link and they let "source bias" cloud their judgement and pursued no further to check the "information content".
                  http://eaglerising.com/5239/christia...aughterhouses/


                  One will first note that as they skim through the 'file'/article, there is a video and it's highly unlikely this is "fiction" from the pen of Walid Shoebat.
                  A "Middle Eastern" male is being interviewed in what sounds like Arabic with English translation-subtitles ...

                  If one bothers to read the text we see he claims to be a Muslim fundamentalist whom joined the Syrian Free Army, was captured and accussed of being "kafir" ~ heathen;
                  "murtad" ~ apostate
                  And told; "Rejoice, you will be sacrificed".

                  He then goes on to describe the "slaughterhouse" he was kept at where many of the victim's remains he saw hanging mutilated from hooks were Syrian Christians.

                  Point is, the implication from Sergio and "Taieb el-Okbi" is that Shoebat fabricated this video and the translations.

                  So much for my excluding the Muslim on Muslim violence or the layered nuances of the situation in Syria. We have here two flippant respondents whom don't even bother to dig in to the material before passing un-related gas.

                  Might be a place for you two in Logistics, or working the donut bar.

                  Al-Adlubi is described in the report as a Muslim fundamentalist who joined the Free Syrian Army and was a militant and a media agent for FSA. He was captured but later “made it out when the Syrian militia” defeated the rebels in that location.

                  Al-Adlubi said he was called a heathen, “kafir,” and he responded, “How could I be considered kafir if I pray and fast?”
                  “You are ‘murtad’ (apostate),” he was told.
                  “I asked him, what is my destiny. I want to get a closure. What is it, a year two years in prison?” Al-Adlubi said.
                  He said he was told, “Rejoice, you will be sacrificed.”
                  Al-Adlubi reported seeing “bodies of young men who were systematically slaughtered and disemboweled.”
                  “The slaughterhouse was on a hill. It is secluded and is void of any homes nearby,” he said. “I witnessed lifeless bodies hanging upside down as if they were slaughtered sheep. In the center of the slaughterhouse is a huge Egyptian about two meters high. He was the one doing the slaughtering.”

                  Read more at http://eaglerising.com/5239/christia...iclBuw7JtwO.99

                  TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                  Comment


                  • Just to ram the point home.

                    Warning graphic and disgusting video...

                    Don't watch it if you already know how flipping evil these guys are...

                    Credo quia absurdum.


                    Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                      For those just tuning in, over the last several posts, "Sergio" and "I-B-Koel-Beiat"~"John"(Taieb el-Okbi) have just failed the test for G2 Staff position.
                      What does G2 mean?

                      http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_G2_mean
                      Staff Military
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G2_%28m...ntelligence%29
                      Military Intelligence
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_intelligence


                      No sooner did either read the first sentences of the following link and they let "source bias" cloud their judgement and pursued no further to check the "information content".
                      http://eaglerising.com/5239/christia...aughterhouses/


                      One will first note that as they skim through the 'file'/article, their is a video and it's highly unlikely this is "fiction" from the pen of Walid Shoebat.
                      A "Middle Eastern" male is being interviewed in what sounds like Arabic with English translation-subtitles ...


                      If one bothers to read the text we see he claims to be a Muslim fundamentalist whom joined the Syrian Free Army, was captured and accussed of being "kafir" ~ heathen;
                      "murtad" ~ apostate
                      And told; "Rejoice, you will be sacrificed".

                      He then goes on to describe the "slaughterhouse" he was kept at where many of the victim's remains he saw hanging mutilated from hooks were Syrian Christians.

                      Point is, the implication from Sergio and "Taieb el-Okbi" is that Shoebat fabricated this video and the translations.

                      So much for my excluding the Muslim on Muslim violence or the layered nuances of the situation in Syria. Have here two flippant respondents whom don't even bother to dig in to the material before passing un-related gas.

                      Might be a place for you two in Logistics, or working the donut bar.
                      Al-Adlubi is described in the report as a Muslim fundamentalist who joined the Free Syrian Army and was a militant and a media agent for FSA. He was captured but later “made it out when the Syrian militia” defeated the rebels in that location.
                      Al-Adlubi said he was called a heathen, “kafir,” and he responded, “How could I be considered kafir if I pray and fast?”
                      “You are ‘murtad’ (apostate),” he was told.
                      “I asked him, what is my destiny. I want to get a closure. What is it, a year two years in prison?” Al-Adlubi said.
                      He said he was told, “Rejoice, you will be sacrificed.”
                      Al-Adlubi reported seeing “bodies of young men who were systematically slaughtered and disemboweled.”
                      “The slaughterhouse was on a hill. It is secluded and is void of any homes nearby,” he said. “I witnessed lifeless bodies hanging upside down as if they were slaughtered sheep. In the center of the slaughterhouse is a huge Egyptian about two meters high. He was the one doing the slaughtering.”

                      Read more at http://eaglerising.com/5239/christia...iclBuw7JtwO.99

                      Al-Adlubi is described in the report as a Muslim fundamentalist who joined the Free Syrian Army and was a militant and a media agent for FSA. He was captured but later “made it out when the Syrian militia” defeated the rebels in that location.
                      Al-Adlubi said he was called a heathen, “kafir,” and he responded, “How could I be considered kafir if I pray and fast?”
                      “You are ‘murtad’ (apostate),” he was told.
                      “I asked him, what is my destiny. I want to get a closure. What is it, a year two years in prison?” Al-Adlubi said.
                      He said he was told, “Rejoice, you will be sacrificed.”
                      Al-Adlubi reported seeing “bodies of young men who were systematically slaughtered and disemboweled.”
                      “The slaughterhouse was on a hill. It is secluded and is void of any homes nearby,” he said. “I witnessed lifeless bodies hanging upside down as if they were slaughtered sheep. In the center of the slaughterhouse is a huge Egyptian about two meters high. He was the one doing the slaughtering.”

                      Read more at http://eaglerising.com/5239/christia...TVg8xW07oCl.99
                      Al-Adlubi is described in the report as a Muslim fundamentalist who joined the Free Syrian Army and was a militant and a media agent for FSA. He was captured but later “made it out when the Syrian militia” defeated the rebels in that location.
                      Al-Adlubi said he was called a heathen, “kafir,” and he responded, “How could I be considered kafir if I pray and fast?”
                      “You are ‘murtad’ (apostate),” he was told.
                      “I asked him, what is my destiny. I want to get a closure. What is it, a year two years in prison?” Al-Adlubi said.
                      He said he was told, “Rejoice, you will be sacrificed.”
                      Al-Adlubi reported seeing “bodies of young men who were systematically slaughtered and disemboweled.”
                      “The slaughterhouse was on a hill. It is secluded and is void of any homes nearby,” he said. “I witnessed lifeless bodies hanging upside down as if they were slaughtered sheep. In the center of the slaughterhouse is a huge Egyptian about two meters high. He was the one doing the slaughtering.”

                      Read more at http://eaglerising.com/5239/christia...TVg8xW07oCl.99
                      Al-Adlubi is described in the report as a Muslim fundamentalist who joined the Free Syrian Army and was a militant and a media agent for FSA. He was captured but later “made it out when the Syrian militia” defeated the rebels in that location.
                      Al-Adlubi said he was called a heathen, “kafir,” and he responded, “How could I be considered kafir if I pray and fast?”
                      “You are ‘murtad’ (apostate),” he was told.
                      “I asked him, what is my destiny. I want to get a closure. What is it, a year two years in prison?” Al-Adlubi said.
                      He said he was told, “Rejoice, you will be sacrificed.”
                      Al-Adlubi reported seeing “bodies of young men who were systematically slaughtered and disemboweled.”
                      “The slaughterhouse was on a hill. It is secluded and is void of any homes nearby,” he said. “I witnessed lifeless bodies hanging upside down as if they were slaughtered sheep. In the center of the slaughterhouse is a huge Egyptian about two meters high. He was the one doing the slaughtering.”

                      Read more at http://eaglerising.com/5239/christia...TVg8xW07oCl.99

                      Al-Adlubi is described in the report as a Muslim fundamentalist who joined the Free Syrian Army and was a militant and a media agent for FSA. He was captured but later “made it out when the Syrian militia” defeated the rebels in that location.
                      Al-Adlubi said he was called a heathen, “kafir,” and he responded, “How could I be considered kafir if I pray and fast?”
                      “You are ‘murtad’ (apostate),” he was told.
                      “I asked him, what is my destiny. I want to get a closure. What is it, a year two years in prison?” Al-Adlubi said.
                      He said he was told, “Rejoice, you will be sacrificed.”
                      Al-Adlubi reported seeing “bodies of young men who were systematically slaughtered and disemboweled.”
                      “The slaughterhouse was on a hill. It is secluded and is void of any homes nearby,” he said. “I witnessed lifeless bodies hanging upside down as if they were slaughtered sheep. In the center of the slaughterhouse is a huge Egyptian about two meters high. He was the one doing the slaughtering.”

                      Read more at http://eaglerising.com/5239/christia...TVg8xW07oCl.99
                      And it looks like you have failed the basic comprehension task of reading a post. I have more than once stated that massacres and massive human rights abuses are taking place in Syria - including by the Islamists.

                      So it is source bias to say that a known con artist is in fact a con artist? What I have said is this - why not use a proper and reliable source rather than a known con artist who has at times called for the murder of children at LEO conferences and has actually made up stories about his own background as well as lying about his charity. The man is a known liar on many fronts. The point was, and is, use proper sources because then the discussion does not get sidetracked from the real issue - dead people in Syria.

                      There are massacres and slaughters happening all over Syria - many committed by the Islamists. Your choice of reference as well as your sole focus on Christians being killed says much about your own bias. the Shoebat link talks about Muslims being killed there too. In fact those who disagree, those who are not ransomed. You chose one aspect - bias indeed.
                      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                      G.B Shaw

                      "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                      Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

                      Comment


                      • Deflection or missing the point? Site i chose was "Eagle Rising", they 'chose' Shoebat as author/presenter of the video content.
                        TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                          Deflection or missing the point? Site i chose was "Eagle Rising", they 'chose' Shoebat as author/presenter of the video content.
                          Wrong once again - see my first post. My first point was as to the importance of the veracity of the allegations. That that is the main point - by using such sources you automatically raise an issue, be it of misreporting, making stuff up or slanted presentation. In each subsequent post I have said atrocities are taking place. What I have asked is is the context of this correct as well as highlighted the issue of Shoebat.

                          You want to use sources and sites like that - then do not be surprised when people point out that the guy is a known fraud.

                          But since it all fits into a wider Islam is Nazism spiel who needs accuracy.
                          "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
                          G.B Shaw

                          "They promised us homes fit for heroes, they give us heroes fit for homes."
                          Grandad, Only Fools and Horses

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                            Let's see if you can read and comprehend the following, clearly;

                            This is unnecessary.

                            Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                            "John", if you had read this thread from the beginning and thoroughly, you'd realize that the issue I have is with the dogma and scriptures of Islam, and those (Muslims) whom seek to apply it literally. Because the dogma of Islam preaches something that is not tolerant of other religions nor allows freedom of human expression and choice, than yes I guess someone with your perspectives would say I'm "afraid of Islam".

                            1) While I do not believe in any specific religion/dogma, and have studied most, I find that they all are not the same in concepts and application, so we are not comparing green apples to red apples but more like bananas to nuts to melons. That in mind, having been born and raised in a religion and attended enough funerals in my lifetime, I've seen where "religion" can be of value to many.

                            2) While there is no religion I consider being one that I could "believe" in, I have no objection to anyone else believing in and practicing a religion so long as;
                            A) They are doing such of their own free will.
                            B) Are not forcing their belief upon any one else, including their children/family.
                            C) Their belief and practice of their religion does not harm others or constrain their personal freedom of choice and expression.

                            My study and the material I've presented in this thread shows that Islam violates all three of the above, especially "C".

                            I don't "fear" Islam so much as despise the dogma and scripture and feel it serves little benefit to humanity in general. It may provide some comfort to believers, but once they impose that belief and dogma upon others it's about as positive to humanity as the NAZIs were (and I find a lot in common with Islamic dogma and NAZI dogma.)
                            Yuck, Godwins law, what are you doing bringing up the Nazis in this debate.

                            Keep in mind , folks around the world are critical of many religions, not just Islam. As a Catholic myself, I am influenced by Pope Francis who asks us Catholics to respect Islam and its Muslim followers. In my religion, we are taught to love our neighbors, not to slander them in offensive ways.








                            I simply disagree with your views on Islam but you dont offend me David. This is merely an internet forum and having an opinion is normal.



                            Yet, imagine if I created a thread about Jewish violence, and I posted examples of Jewish individuals/groups carrying out attacks, or that I used single verses from the Torah to say " look at how evil and ruthless Judaism can be". I dont think Jews would appreciate that, how do you think a Muslim would feel about this thread of yours, David?

                            IMO, I dont believe that Jews threaten the world, or that Jews control the media, or other typical nonsense anti Semites say. In addition, I don't believe Muslims or Islam pose a threat to the world.

                            The facts are criminals or bad guys can be found in practically all belief systems.

                            No offense David, but your not projecting any positive stories from Muslim majority countries, its all negative, you create sort of a theater in which you constantly associate bad with Muslim majority countries. Your not projecting any positive stories from the Quran, its all negative views of yours.

                            So I will end this post with my beliefs, I believe that the three religions of Abraham and others, not to mention atheists have contributed greatly to society.
                            Last edited by Taieb el-Okbi; 22 Mar 14, 21:13.

                            Comment


                            • David, this whole thread you have constantly been criticizing one religion, Islam, and you have been doing so for 5 straight years. Well Im not here to defend Islam nor do I take offense from your post. Yet, I would like to understand how you, David, could be so seemingly afraid of one religion while disregarding the controversies with other religions. Dont me get wrong the UKIP party in England for example, is known for its highly critical views of Islam. Yet they dont really hold that much clout in the UK.

                              I am no expert on UK politics nor do I support any one UK political group. But here are some of the stats,

                              UKIP Party


                              House of Commons
                              0 / 650

                              House of Lords
                              3/724

                              Local government (Great Britain)
                              220 / 20,590

                              Police and Crime Commissioner
                              0 / 41


                              I feel that concentrating on Anti Immigration is a problem for UKIP and why UKIP most likely will fail to become a significant political movement in the UK. David I feel if a politician in the USA was to put your views to use, he would not get popular support.



                              You cant say that A(followers of Islam) is more violent then B(followers of Judaism) when we have proof that B has committed horrible, violent, brutal acts just as A has. You could argue that A has committed more violent acts then B or vs versa.


                              "Bad" exists throughout multiple belief systems around the world.

                              Being a Catholic myself, and a person who deeply respects Pope Francis, I am influenced to find the good that exists within Judaism and Islam. And again when it comes to religion one can note folks have many disagreements. I'm not defending any religion itt but I'm simply showing viewpoints(some from the Quran, some from Islamic Scholars, etc) which go against G David Bocks opinion on Islam.

                              For more on how Islam teaches one to learn how to forgive(Just like Christianity or Judaism),


                              And those who, when tyranny strikes them, they defend themselves, And the recompense of evil is punishment like it, but whoever forgives and amends, he shall have his reward from Allah; surely He does not love the unjust. And whoever avenges himself after having been wronged - those have not upon them any cause [for blame]. The way (of blame) is only against those who oppress mankind, and wrongfully rebel in the earth. For such there is a painful doom. (42:39-42)


                              'Whoever suffers an injury done to him and forgives (the person responsible), Allah will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins.'(Sunan At-Tirmidhî) hadith, (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)


                              Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.' Hadith (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)





                              Clearly, The message of Islam is to forgive previous enemies and to treat others with respect and justice that they are entitled to



                              here is some info from a 2011 gallup poll,









                              http://www.gallup.com/poll/148763/mu...-violence.aspx

                              In addition


                              In a 2011 meeting, the United Nations Alliance of Civilizations, as well as the League of Arab States, a key partner, identified Islamophobia as an important area of concern. Gallup developed a specific set of analyses, based on measurement of public opinions of majority and minority groups in multiple countries, to guide policymakers in their efforts to address the global issue of Islamophobia.

                              Research shows that the U.S. identified more than 160 Muslim-American terrorist suspects and perpetrators in the decade since 9/11, just a percentage of the thousands of acts of violence that occur in the United States each year. It is from this overall collection of violence that "an efficient system of government prosecution and media coverage brings Muslim-American terrorism suspects to national attention, creating the impression - perhaps unintentionally - that Muslim-American terrorism is more prevalent than it really is." Never mind that since 9/11, the Muslim-American community has helped security and law enforcement officials prevent nearly two of every five al Qaeda terrorist plots threatening the United States and that tips from the Muslim-American community are the largest single source of initial information to authorities about these few plots.

                              http://www.gallup.com/poll/157082/is...nt-west.aspx#1
                              Last edited by Taieb el-Okbi; 23 Mar 14, 18:08.

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                              • -------As for the present,

                                Two recent Popes along with a delegation of 36 Islamic scholars and many more from the Muslim and Christian faith do believe in peace between Muslims and Christians. In a letter addressed to Pope Benedict, 36 Islamic scholars also discussed Verse (ayah) 256 of Al-Baqara

                                There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût and believes in God (ar. Allah), then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And God is All-Hearer, All-Knower.


                                An excerpt from the letter sent to Pope Benedict

                                "this verse is acknowledged to belong to the period of Quranic revelation corresponding to the political and military ascendance of the young Muslim community. ‘There is no compulsion in religion’ was not a command to Muslims to remain steadfast in the face of the desire of their oppressors to force them to renounce their faith, but was a reminder to Muslims themselves, once they had attained power, that they could not force another's heart to believe. There is no compulsion in religion addresses those in a position of strength, not weakness. The earliest commentaries on the Qur'an (such as that of Al-Tabari) make it clear that some Muslims of Medina wanted to force their children to convert from Judaism or Christianity to Islam, and this verse was precisely an answer to them not to try to force their children to convert to Islam."

                                http://ammanmessage.com/media/openLetter/english.pdf


                                -----As for the past,

                                After the Siege of Jerusalem (637) Omar( a companion of Muhammad) prayed outside of the church of the holy sepulchre as to not endanger the Church's status as a Christian site. Omar was the man who set aside the previous Christian ban on Jews and allowed Jews to worship and settle in Jerusalem.



                                During the time of Saladin,

                                Muslims, Jews and Christians got along well for the most part, keep in mind this was toward the end of the 12th century and 100 years earlier it was the Christians who took control of Jerusalem.

                                Folks who claim Christianity is better then Islam will have to deal with the fact that so called Christians killed Muslim and Jewish children during the siege of Jerusalem(1099), showing practically no mercy to their enemy unlike Saladin did. Now heres the thing, Bad occurs all around the word, this doesnt mean that noble Christians Holy Warriors didn't exist throughout the med evil times, they did, and in great numbers.
                                Last edited by Taieb el-Okbi; 23 Mar 14, 18:05.

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