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  • Omar,

    Review the first two pages here and especially post #28, you'll see why this thread is here.

    Also, why should someone born in a country dominated by Islam be forced/oppressed into only practicing that religion/faith?

    Islam has a poor reputation of tolerance for other religions and lifestyles and per Shiria presents it's self as very tyrannical to human freedoms and expressions.

    I'm just scratching the surface of issues here ...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Omar View Post
      Im sick and tired of double standards.
      We all are.
      When you find in afganistan a man who cut ears of some woman he is ISLAMIST he is RADICAL MUSLIM he is TALIBAN ( even all afghans arent taliban)
      Can you point out a single instance of spousal mutilation in Afghanistan that WASN'T performed by a non Muslim? We don't call people that abuse their wives Taliban by the way.
      but when Breivik kill 80 children in Norway noone mix it with religion. People wont say he is christian terrorist or western radical... They say He is JUST ONE SICK PERSON even he was inspired by hate of immigrants christianism and racism
      Turkish media really doesn't report western news, huh?, either that or you choose to ignore the news completely.


      As i said. Whoever work in interest for islam he is terrorist on your list.
      As we've said before. You are wrong.
      Noone yelling that hitler was christian and i dont want to blame his people or their faith for his deeds but in muslim case...
      Godwins Law.
      And come on.. Will someone answer me WHY SO CALLED AL QAEDA HATE USA . WHAT IS THE REASON ?
      Yes, please tell us why AQ hates the US.

      Comment


      • Sort of related;
        This Map Shows the ‘Riskiest’ Places in the World

        http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...-in-the-world/


        (Many tend to be places where Islam is 'dominate' ... )

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Omar View Post
          I UNDERSTAND AMERICANs AND THEIR FEAR AND I KNOW THAT THEY HAVE BEEN SCARED WITH SOME IMMAGINAR ENEMY. THATS WHY I DONT WANT TO SAY BAD THINGS ABOUT NORMAL CIVILIANS EVEN IF THEY MOCK ISLAM (cose of desinformations)
          Really? How imaginary is this?



          You insult our intelligence, Omar.
          "Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way." - Christopher Hitchens

          Comment


          • Originally posted by globetrotter View Post
            Really? How imaginary is this?



            You insult our intelligence, Omar.
            You didnt get what i wanted to say. Bin laden left all that us military untouched and went to the other side of our planet just to kill 2000 civilians who havent anything done. That is insult of intelligencd. I already said ITS INSIDE JOB. ( see starting of american spanish war )

            Ok bin laden is dead ` who is the enemy now, and for last 10 years. We are, muslims-islam. Just look the reaction of your people. I said immaginary because IN GENERAL muslims arent enemies usa citizens.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Omar View Post
              That is insult of intelligencd. I already said ITS INSIDE JOB. ( see starting of american spanish war )
              Don't insult our intelligence.
              Ok bin laden is dead ` who is the enemy now, and for last 10 years. We are, muslims-islam. Just look the reaction of your people. I said immaginary because IN GENERAL muslims arent enemies usa citizens.
              Why does AQ hate the US/West?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                Sort of related;
                This Map Shows the ‘Riskiest’ Places in the World

                http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...-in-the-world/


                (Many tend to be places where Islam is 'dominate' ... )
                I would like to see changes without a war but as we know history has been written with blood. People are not satisfyed from 1924, they fight for their goals. Some lands still have colonial desires (c.c. France/ Mali etc )

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Naffenea View Post
                  Don't insult our intelligence.


                  Why does AQ hate the US/West?
                  Maybe its hard for you to accept it s inside yob and your government has done it just like pentagon attack with a rocket

                  And i asked you why they hate usa, You should think little bit out of mainstream. Usa is on other side of planet, what is the reason ?

                  Comment


                  • The so-called 'War of Terror' between Islam and the West is a side issue and a distraction. The real war is between Sunni and Shia adherents of Islam and it ranges every day, across more that a dozen countries, from Tunisia in the west to Indonesia in the east. Hundreds, often thousands, are killed every day in this conflict.

                    Who is winning currently? Who will win ultimately? I don't know, but currently the Shias have the upper hand in prominent countries such as Lebanon, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, etc.

                    For every one 'infidel' killed in this regional (almost global) conflict, there are many hundreds, sometimes thousands, of Muslims killed.....every day.

                    So when people call for a US and Western intervention in the Shia-Sunni conflict in Syria and elsewhere, my reaction is: "Why? The conflict was not of our making, we have little to gain from the conflict either way. So, you guys, just carry on and we will watch as interested observors without committing our blood and treasure to either cause.

                    Why should we?


                    Philip
                    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."— Bertrand Russell

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Omar View Post
                      Maybe its hard for you to accept it s inside yob and your government has done it just like pentagon attack with a rocket
                      Stop insulting our intelligence.

                      And i asked you why they hate usa, You should think little bit out of mainstream. Usa is on other side of planet, what is the reason ?
                      You brought it up. why does AQ hate America?

                      Comment




                      • Ive took advice from one Forum user and read post #28

                        Dear David Bock, I dont want to convince you to accept my stance then to write my view of the stuff you mentioned, so lets go...

                        Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                        Muhammad sought to unit his people, the Arabs, by presenting them with a Religion of their own, that could compete with those other religions dominating the region. His initial version of Islam was somewhat like Christianity with a message of 'peace and love'. However, after a few years of persecution, assault, and deaths of some of his followers by fellow Arabs rejecting his message, "Allah" told him it would be alright to fight back in defense. Then later "Allah" decided that Islam should be even more assertative and aggressive, hence Muhammad's final Suras to the Koran were to fight all none believers until the whole World had converted to Islam (or the Judgement Day arrived). .
                        From the start message of Islam was "arab is not better then non-arab, nor oposite, White is not better then black one, nor opposite. Only deeds of People God Count. There was black slaves and persian People, too who are beeing called into new "Revolution". First 10 years message to the people was only about monotheism and "dissing" Idol worship etc... but when pagans started to act too violent by killing and prosecuting muslims, they immigrated to another place, and there too muslims warent without danger for their lives so they started to fight back.

                        "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (2-190)

                        but even this is avoided if any Chance exist:

                        "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear God, the cherisher of the worlds. ( 5:28)


                        Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                        In pursuing this Mandate, Muhammad became both a Religious leader and a Political leader ~ General, and lead armies in conquest and conversion in his final years. This set a pattern continued 'off and on' ever since by various Califs-'supreme leaders' of Islam..
                        Rule in Islam is if you can remove evil with your Hands you must do it, you can imagine what Kind of "Society" was around first muslims /killing, selling People, woman was without any right etc... it was pretty wild and unjust.

                        Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                        In "The Global War on Terror", the term "Terror" and "Terrorist" is used as part of a 'political correctness' to dodge use of Islamic Fundamentalists/Islamic Jihadists - so as not to confuse the world and other Muslims in to thinking it's a war against all of Islam..

                        Yes, part is correct ( well, i try to speak truthful ) but part isnt, ive never heard before that some faith is connected together with "radicalism" "Terror" or that some religious term is purposely wrong interpreted as "jihad" and "Islam". Have you ever heard Budhistic terrorism (even they kill everyone in Myanmar right now ), or Christian radicalism etc...

                        Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                        The Islamic Jihadists have two basic motivations;
                        1) Allah has told them to wage Holy War - Jihad against all infidels until they are dead or converted to Islam. (This is how Jihadists a.k.a.Islamic Fundamentalists literally read the Koran.)
                        2) With Islamic Heaven a multi-layered/levels structure, the only way to achieve the better position(s) in AllahLand-Paradise is to be a Holy Warrior (mujhandi) engaged in Holy War - Jihad.
                        Source ???
                        1) Ive NEVER saw "holy war" termy in all islamic literature or lectures in my whole life, and i challange you to find. What is holy in so destructive Thing ? holy war Termine was used from crusaders (dont want to go further in that thread ). If you want to say in arabic holy war, its el harb mukaddissa, there is no such a Thing in our Book.

                        "they are dead or converted to Islam "

                        God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers (60-8)

                        And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers (2-193)

                        Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (2:256 )

                        "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):......(The Noble Quran, 18:29)"

                        "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then COMPEL mankind, against their will, to believe (10-99)

                        2) only way to get better place is to die as martyr ?????

                        "The ink of scholars (used in writing) is weighed on the Day of Judgment with the blood of martyrs and the ink of scholars out-weighs the blood of martyrs (Shahadah)"<<<<~~. Prophet a.s. Said

                        And if you die as fighter ( there are some Terms ) you going to get bigger reward. In your land soldiers are more respected in the Society... or they should be; you must give the guys credit for braveness and sacrifice



                        Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

                        While suicide is normally a "sin" in Islam and not sanctioned by Allah, if a Holy Warrior dies while engaged in Jihad, his reward is even greater. What we in the West would call a suicide attack, an Islamic Jihadist sees as martyrdom to Islam.
                        ONLY if there isnt other way to damage your enemy ( SOME of muslims allow it in that Situation) but NOT civilians...



                        No such a Thing as "holy warrior ", its a terminology from crusade. Suicide is forbidden in Islam ! For example words of Prophet a.s.:

                        ...And whoever commits suicide with piece of iron will be punished with the same piece of iron in the Hell Fire." Hadith - Bukhari 2:445

                        A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him." hadith from Bukhari 7:576

                        ((Indeed, whoever (intentionally) kills himself, then certainly he will be punished in the Fire of Hell, wherein he shall dwell forever)), hadith [Bukhari (5778) and Muslim (109 and 110)].

                        ---------------------------------------

                        Quran 5:32 about killing innocent People:

                        For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.


                        -----------------------------------------

                        Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                        As with any fanatic engaging in violence to acheive a goal, Islamic Jihadists can not be negotiated with in the normal understanding of diplomacy. Jihadists will 'negotiate', but only as a tactic to use against the gullible who think the Jihadist will bind by what is negotiated. Afterall, to a Jihadist, we non-believers/Infidels, technically aren't even Human, and since we aren't fellow Muslims, deception/lying to us is not a sin by their religious beliefs..
                        I dont think so. If you say that someone is fanatic hardcore Islamist, then he would surely respect some stuff ive wrote ( go and read again from start if you dont remember ).... The Thing is to Show your enemy as worst creatures ever... Taliban warent so bad when they fought against commies or..


                        ------------------------

                        Originally posted by G David Bock View Post


                        Options for the West in the GWOT are;

                        1) Convert to Islam

                        2) Accept that Jihadists will continue to attack as long as they exist and and there are non-Muslims (or heretic Muslims) to attack (such as has been going on for nearly 1400 years already).

                        3) Eliminate Jihadists and Jihad idealology.

                        For an example of how this confirms; see the following earlier message in a "Letter to the American People" from Osama bin Laden;
                        http://www.sftt.org/dwa/2002/12/4/5.html

                        BTW, any who fully grasps what I've tried to present here will realize that the capture/death of OBL and the elimination of al Qaeda will not result in the end of Islamic Jihad or attacks against we Infidels. The movement is much broader than just Al Qaeda and the Taliban. It's also a rather assymetrical type of warfare we're confronted with

                        1) Convert to Islam - Optional, but Let there be no compulsion as Almighty says.

                        2) "jihadists" gonna attack till someone leave theres land and People alone, and not fight against them with some influence;

                        3) well, we muslims fight Outlaws too, but .. for some of you WOT means eliminate everyone who doesnt accept to be shaped by you, on your mold. Further, i dont even believe that Al Qaeda exist ( like you showin )

                        ----------------------------


                        One from me;

                        "Jihadists" are not in Position to demand, so its clear they fight defensive against those who invaded. See from Somalia as an example
                        Last edited by Omar; 20 May 13, 12:22.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Omar View Post
                          I would like to see changes without a war but as we know history has been written with blood. People are not satisfyed from 1924, they fight for their goals. Some lands still have colonial desires (c.c. France/ Mali etc )
                          Probably similar to the people whom are not satisfied "from 1948"

                          It's a bitch to lose, but sometimes one should accept the situation and move on.

                          For those wondering about your 'signature', Rashidun Caliphate;
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashidun_Caliphate

                          From the beginning, when "Islam" decided it was more than just an 'Arab thing'.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Omar View Post


                            Ive took advice from one Forum user and read post #28

                            Dear David Bock, I dont want to convince you to accept my stance then to write my view of the stuff you mentioned, so lets go...
                            Etc. ....
                            Omar,

                            Appreciate your effort and response. However it's much that we've heard/seen on this thread before in prior posts, and dealt with already. Note that when I mentioned #28, I also mentioned the first two pages of posts prior to it, which go into detail and provide references to positions and claims I've made, that you've tried to counter.

                            You do illustrate the often conflicting nature of Islamic scripture; Quran, Haddith, Sunna; often a matter of the non-chronological structure of same.

                            I haven't time to go into details of response to your many points, other than what I've just said, however, would like to point out that there was a question and a statement following the mention of #28 above, that you haven't addressed and would be helpful to hear your position on such.

                            BTW, note that this thread started nearly six years ago. Some links may no longer work, and many sub-topics have been hashed a few times.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Naffenea View Post
                              Stop insulting our intelligence.



                              You brought it up. why does AQ hate America?
                              Not to let "Omar" off the hook, but for those reading here whom might wonder;
                              Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'

                              Online document: the full text of Osama bin Laden's "letter to the American people", reported in today's Observer. The letter first appeared on the internet in Arabic and has since been translated and circulated by Islamists in Britain.

                              http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                                Sort of related;
                                This Map Shows the ‘Riskiest’ Places in the World

                                http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...-in-the-world/


                                (Many tend to be places where Islam is 'dominate' ... )
                                True story, I don't ever recall hitting an IED in the U.S.
                                "You hit somebody with your fist and not with your fingers spread." -Heinz Guderian.

                                Comment

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