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  • Fatah Islam defeated

    The survivors of the Lebanese army assault attempted to hide but were rounded up by villagers armed with makeshift weapons. Yet another dream of an Islamist fundamentalist state joins the pantheon of forgotten lies.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070903/...banon_violence

    "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
    --Frederick II, King of Prussia

  • #2
    Good deal!! If only this would spread.
    If you can't set a good example, be a glaring warning.

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    • #3
      Huzzah! I'll have to congratulate Major Ghadban.
      And it's over the mountain and over the Main,
      Through Gibralter, to France and Spain.
      Pit a feather tae your bonnet, and a kilt aboon your knee,
      Enlist my bonnie laddie and come awa with me.

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      • #4
        Funny they said the same when another camp was conquered in Lebenon its fighters killed and bombed in to surrender and here we are 20 years later fighting their kids!!! Wonder what we'll call their kids... Rapper terrorists, maybe they might be Diaspora terrorists or maybe they will all join the Scientologists then they might COS terrorists.

        Nothing changes but the names and the foolish thought that you can change things with bombs alone.

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        • #5
          It takes two . . .

          Originally posted by verbaluzi View Post
          Funny they said the same when another camp was conquered in Lebenon its fighters killed and bombed in to surrender and here we are 20 years later fighting their kids!!! Wonder what we'll call their kids... Rapper terrorists, maybe they might be Diaspora terrorists or maybe they will all join the Scientologists then they might COS terrorists.

          Nothing changes but the names and the foolish thought that you can change things with bombs alone.
          Fatah Islam thought they could do it wih AKs and RPGs. Which side was the more foolish? At least the Lebanese government was well informed enough to conduct the fight on their opponents turf.

          Why not put yourself in the place of the local Muslim comunity and ask, "What are we doing wrong? Why are we always getting bombed? Was it something we said?"
          Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

          Questions about our site? See the FAQ.

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          • #6
            Why not grow up coyote. I did not in any way say I supported or condoned their actions I was pointing out how ironic it is that we do not learn the lessons of history and keep repeating them. As I have stated in other threads, the gun is not the sole answer to these problems as is continually seen.

            The irony is that nobody was defeated today just another cause, another reason created for some other Palestinian boy to run around with an AK shouting about revenge and what ever else they find as a hook to reel them in. The bottom line is if you really think you can solve this with guns alone then I suggest that you kill all of them the old, the young the women their distant relations anybody they have had lunch with the whole lot because thats how it runs when you just use guns with out any thought to avoiding the follow on effects.

            Guns and Butter.

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            • #7
              Why not remove your blinders?

              Originally posted by verbaluzi View Post
              Why not grow up coyote. I did not in any way say I supported or condoned their actions I was pointing out how ironic it is that we do not learn the lessons of history and keep repeating them. As I have stated in other threads, the gun is not the sole answer to these problems as is continually seen.

              The irony is that nobody was defeated today just another cause, another reason created for some other Palestinian boy to run around with an AK shouting about revenge and what ever else they find as a hook to reel them in. The bottom line is if you really think you can solve this with guns alone then I suggest that you kill all of them the old, the young the women their distant relations anybody they have had lunch with the whole lot because thats how it runs when you just use guns with out any thought to avoiding the follow on effects.

              Guns and Butter.
              My point, which you so nimbly jump in order to reach your one sided conclusion, is that [fill in the the militants of your choice here] are following the same failed path as the preceding generations with no appreciable progress on the social learning curve. The Lebanese military was responding in the same manner as other Arab governments have been responding to militant movements since essentially the invention of gunpowder.

              My point is that these little dust-ups are not happening in an historical vacumn. Your tone implied that it's the government du jour that is always wrong in resorting to force. That short circuits the more rigorous analysis needed to engage in real problem solving. From the outside, the end result of another smashed refugee camp was totally predictable. A perfectly fair and logical question is simply, "why didn't Fatah Islam see this coming?"
              Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

              Questions about our site? See the FAQ.

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              • #8
                No it was not the obvious and necessary response of the Lebanese or the trapped in the cycle Fatah Islam terrorists that I directed my comment at it was the general assumption that this was a victory. When anybody with half the experience of the average forumer here could see that they are trapped in the vicious cycle and the victory is but a transitory thing.

                Verb

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                • #9
                  reading again Coyote do you actually read my posts or just see my name and assume I'm on the terrorists side... Very bad form if true

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                  • #10
                    Hardly . . .

                    Originally posted by verbaluzi View Post
                    reading again Coyote do you actually read my posts or just see my name and assume I'm on the terrorists side... Very bad form if true
                    I simply see assumptions and thoughts half expressed that should be examined more fully.
                    Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

                    Questions about our site? See the FAQ.

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                    • #11
                      OK so what assumptions have I made here?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by verbaluzi View Post
                        OK so what assumptions have I made here?
                        I thought we'd elaborated well enough during the exchange above, but just to be clear - a "cycle" of violence entangles multiple participants. I read your post as critical of the government's action without asking about the militant's role in the cycle. Both groups have opportunities for ending the cycle. They must be able to reach some form of accommodation to end it in fact.

                        In particular Fatah Islam is a new entrant in the already crowded Lebanese factional scene, intent on importing Wahabbism. They can't truly be said to have been part of previous "cycles". The fact that they thought they could successfully insert themselves says more about their fanatacism and the powerlessness of their Palestinian refugee "hosts" than it does about the merits of the current Lebanese government.
                        Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

                        Questions about our site? See the FAQ.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          My very first comment

                          Funny they said the same when another camp was conquered in Lebenon its fighters killed and bombed in to surrender and here we are 20 years later fighting their kids!!!
                          My comment is clear at the very beginning. Our assumption of victory is false (thats what is says). It goes on to point out its a cycle. There are no assumptions about who is right or wrong or more importantly who is to blame here. We have a cycle the fact that Fatah Islam is different to the any other group in name is just what happens resistance groups mutate through generations.

                          IRA-Provisional IRA - etc.

                          The Kids in Fatah are influenced by whoever can offer them a plausible (to them in their situation) route to a change in circumstances. You are of course correct they need to see their part in that cycle all I was saying was we do not help that when we do these things, unfortunately we have little choice with regard to the violence but when its finished we have the option to change our relationship with those left behind, instead we leave them festering in refugee camps creating the next cycle of terrorists. Victory only comes when you break the cycle not when you give the wheel another spin. I do not blame the Lebanese Government for tackling them with violence, and say so
                          No it was not the obvious and necessary response of the Lebanese
                          but we have to give thought to what happens after this or we will be seeing the sons of these guys running around with AKs following the latest flavour of extremism and we will end up bombing them and declaring victory yardi yardi yar...

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