Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The 9/11 witch hunt

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The 9/11 witch hunt

    I was just reading an article from Yahoo news about the 9/11 commissions questioning of NYC's Police and Fire Chiefs'. One commissioner compared thier efforts on 9/11 to "be not worthy of the Boy Scout's." While von Essen and Kerik were testifing there were continuous disruptions from the audience, which reminded me of something that Jerry Springer might be involved in. What is up with this commission? They have absolutely no idea of what they are talking about, yet they are sitting there in judgement over people who did the best they could during a very difficult time. No one expected those towers to collapse as they did and no one could have predicted it (except maybe a couple of those drooling morons on the commission,), IMHO it is time that the 9/11 commission be dismissed, there is nothing of any use that has come out of it, the true failure has been from the commissioners themselves. They have totally failed the American prople.

  • #2
    OK, I'm too lazy to type in the URL...so here's the story that brought about the above rant.

    Originally posted by Yahoo news
    9/11 Panel Scolds Ex-Police, Fire Chiefs


    By DEVLIN BARRETT, Associated Press Writer

    NEW YORK - The former police and fire chiefs who were lionized after the World Trade Center attack came under harsh criticism Tuesday from the Sept. 11 commission, with one member saying the departments' lack of cooperation was scandalous and "not worthy of the Boy Scouts."


    Commission members, in New York for an emotional two-day hearing, focused on how leaders of the two departments failed to share information effectively in the early frantic moments after two hijacked planes slammed into the World Trade Center.


    Former fire commissioner Thomas Von Essen and former police chief Bernard Kerik shot back with infuriated responses to commissioner John Lehman's questions, the strongest of a series of pointed statements from the panel.


    "I couldn't disagree with you more strongly," Von Essen replied. "I think it's outrageous that you make a statement like that." Outside the hearing, he called the questioning "despicable."


    Families of Sept. 11 victims applauded the tough questioning and shook their heads sadly as the panel enumerated a litany of communication breakdowns between the departments. Family members sporadically mocked and booed Von Essen, Kerik and Richard Sheirer, former Office of Emergency Management commissioner, and they wept earlier in the day as they watched videotape of the buildings collapsing.


    As Von Essen testified, Sally Regenhard — who lost her firefighter son — held up a piece of paper reading: "LIES."


    The 10-member bipartisan panel has been holding hearings over the last year, including high-profile meetings in Washington last month about intelligence failures, to examine what led to the attacks and determine ways to avoid future attacks. The panel will issue its final report July 26.


    Former Mayor Rudolph Giuliani was scheduled to testify at the second day of hearings Wednesday.


    While the New York hearings — held 1 1/2 miles from ground zero — were meant to examine problems in the city's emergency response system, officials also were asked about what they knew about terrorism threats in the months before Sept. 11.


    The former director of the World Trade Center told the commission that he knew nothing of Osama bin Laden's terror network until the summer before the attacks, and was never privy to FBI intelligence that Islamic terrorists might hijack U.S. planes.


    Alan Reiss said he first heard about bin Laden's al-Qaida network when ex-FBI agent John O'Neill was hired in the summer of 2001 as head of security at the trade center. O'Neill, who had hunted bin Laden for years, was one of the 2,749 people killed in the attack.


    "I was aware of the plot against some of the other Port Authority tunnels and the U.N.," Reiss testified. "But we were never briefed" by the FBI.


    Reiss also said he was more focused on fending off possible bioterrorism attacks such as anthrax, spending more than $100,000 to protect the building from such an assault.


    "We felt this (anthrax) was the next coming wave," he said. "We had developed plans on how to isolate the air conditioning system and shut it down but never did we have a thought of what happened on 9-11."


    Reiss bristled under questioning from commission member Bob Kerrey, who asked him if he is angry that "things might have been different had they (FBI) trusted you enough" to deliver important intelligence.


    Reiss said he was not angry at the FBI, but rather at "19 people in an airplane," referring to the hijackers.


    Kerrey said he shared Reiss' anger. "These 19 people ... defeated the INS, they defeated the Customs (Department), they defeated the FBI, they defeated the CIA," the former Nebraska senator said as family members of the victims chimed in with the loudest applause of the morning.

    But Kerrey said he was more concerned that "we may not be delivering the key intelligence, the facts, the information" to the first responders.

    Later, the miscommunication was termed "a scandal" by Lehman, who then complained it was "not worthy of the Boy Scouts, let alone this great city."

    Family members cheered when commission member Slade Gorton launched an aggressive line of questioning about the city's 911 emergency system to Kerik, Von Essen and Sheirer.

    When the agency heads tried to defer to their successors, Gorton refused to let them. "I'm asking ... what was going on Sept. 11," Gorton said to applause from the families.

    Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly was asked if the city was prepared to handle a chemical attack with 10,000 injuries. "I would say no," he replied.

    For some family members, it was a day for reflection rather than protest. Terry McGovern, whose mother died in the south tower, said she came away with an understanding of what happened that day.

    "For me, it was reliving what my mother heard, what she saw, what her last moments were," McGovern said.

    The hearing began with a commission report recounting how city officials were forced to make life-and-death decisions based on incomplete communications, leading to some of the deaths in the twin 110-story buildings.

    The communication problems resulted in incidents such as the deaths of Port Authority workers told to wait for help on the 64th floor of one tower. Many of them died when the building collapsed.

    Communications breakdowns also prevented announcements to evacuate from reaching civilians in one of the buildings. One survivor recounted calling 911 from the 44th floor of the south tower, only to be placed on hold twice.

    That was not a surprise, since emergency operators had a "lack of awareness" about what was happening at the twin towers and were overwhelmed by the sheer volume of calls, said commission staffer Sam Casperson.
    ___

    Comment


    • #3
      Well one would think that the Fire Chief not having access to the visual info that everybody watching the live news could see would be a bad thing. This is obviously a communication problem which needs to be addressed, and complaining that it makes the dead firemen look bad is an unacceptable dodging of the fact.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Prester John
        Well one would think that the Fire Chief not having access to the visual info that everybody watching the live news could see would be a bad thing. This is obviously a communication problem which needs to be addressed, and complaining that it makes the dead firemen look bad is an unacceptable dodging of the fact.
        Originally posted by 9/11 Timeline
        8:46 a.m. - American Flight 11 from Boston crashes into the North
        Tower at the World Trade Center.

        9:03 a.m. - United Flight 175 from Boston crashes into the South
        Tower at the World Trade Center.

        - U.S. Federal Aviation Administration shuts down all New
        York area airports.

        9:21 a.m. - Bridges and tunnels leading into New York City
        are closed.

        9:25 a.m. - All domestic flights are grounded by U.S. Federal
        Aviation Administration.

        9:45 a.m. - American Flight 77 crashes into The Pentagon.

        10:05 a.m. - The South Tower at the World Trade Center collapses.

        10:05 a.m. - The White House is evacuated.

        10:10 a.m. - A large section of one side of The Pentagon collapses.

        10:10 a.m. - United Flight 93 crashes in a wooded area in
        Pennsylvania, after passengers confront hijackers.

        10:28 a.m. - The North Tower at the World Trade Center collapses.
        Communication wasn't the problem John, even if the fire chief had been watching TV it wouldn't have made any difference. What would have watching TV accomplished, just visual evidence that the building was on fire? They already knew that. The crux of the commissioners arguments is that someone could have foreseen the collapse of the towers, which they couldn't have. Most of the people who died on 9/11 died when the towers collapsed, had the towers stood for a little while longer I believe that most of the people in the WTC could have been saved. No the police and the fire department did the best they could, I for one think that they did an outstanding job. As for the 9/11 Commissioners by this action they prove themselves to be nothing more than stupid fools.

        Comment


        • #5
          I saw the summary of yesterdays kangaroo court on The Jim Lehr News Hour and was quite disgusted. These people, who's idea of a crisis probably revolves around a bad story in the press need to get a grip.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Priest
            Communication wasn't the problem John, even if the fire chief had been watching TV it wouldn't have made any difference. What would have watching TV accomplished, just visual evidence that the building was on fire? They already knew that. The crux of the commissioners arguments is that someone could have foreseen the collapse of the towers, which they couldn't have. Most of the people who died on 9/11 died when the towers collapsed, had the towers stood for a little while longer I believe that most of the people in the WTC could have been saved. No the police and the fire department did the best they could, I for one think that they did an outstanding job. As for the 9/11 Commissioners by this action they prove themselves to be nothing more than stupid fools.
            Could the firechief have done a better job with more information? Yes or No.
            If the proper procedures and equipment were in place could that information have been made available? Yes or No.

            Around the world a lot of emergency services ministers will be watching this very closely to see what was done right, what was done wrong, and most importantly to see that the best response possible is made next time a disaster on this scale happens. If mistakes were made then they have to be acknowledged and corrected. It would be very foolish to say that the way the disaster was handled was perfect and nothing could be improved upon by the emergency services.

            Comment


            • #7
              I've lived here in NYC for 30 years & I can tell you that the FDNY & the NYPD have been at war with each other for decades over who is in charge of emergency response. This is not a partisan issue, believe me . Most recent example: someone jumped off the 59th st. bridge, the FDNY sent divers down to search for the body. A NYPD boat arrive to drag for the body. The FDNY said they had divers down there & not to drag, that they were in charge. The Cops did it anyway & managed to snag one of the FDNY divers on it's hooks - big uproar, it had to be settled by the mayor. This is typical of their turf wars, no clear deliniation of authority, constant fighting between the 2 organisations.
              Both von Essen & Kerik, the commmisioners at the time, are not the sharpest knives in the drawer, believe me.
              Unite your forces in space & time, split the enemy forces spatially & defeat them at different times - Rommel

              Comment


              • #8
                I thought Lehman (was it?) was kind of showboating for the media. His tone complicated testimony.

                However, I do agree with Prester John. Emergency Response and Preparation officials are likely going to use 9/11 to establish procedures to cope with these kind of casualty intensive disasters. Lessons learned can be applied to improve how towns and countries response to earthquakes, large fires, and flooding, just to name a few. So it is important to leave no stone unturned.
                "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                Comment


                • #9
                  Undoubtedly, a lot of sacred oxen will be gored in this. Let's hope that from all the partisan handwringing and showboating (on both sides) we learn some valuable lessons.
                  I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Prester John
                    Could the firechief have done a better job with more information? Yes or No.
                    No.
                    Originally posted by Prester John
                    If the proper procedures and equipment were in place could that information have been made available? Yes or No.
                    No.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Priest
                      No.

                      No.
                      You must be looking at a different commission.
                      I'm looking at the testimony and commentary arising from the atttack in New York. I'm glad to know that everything worked well for the emergency chiefs that you are listening to.

                      From the New York Times today:
                      The former and current mayor and Mr. Ridge appeared on the second and final day of the commission's visit to New York City, which took the brunt of the Sept. 11 violence. Before testimony began, the commission's staff issued a report that criticized official communication systems used in the emergency response a recurring theme in investigations since the attack and also summarized flaws in how World Trade Center authorities and tenants prepared for disasters and reacted during the disaster.

                      And from my local news:
                      The former commissioners of the New York fire, police and emergency management departments, at times choking with emotion, acknowledged some communications problems, but vehemently denied rivalries had hampered the operation.

                      Now I am not going to enter into the rivalry or whatever, but it would seem there is a case to be made for the communication problems.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Priest
                        You asked if the communication problems made a difference in the outcome and I said...no it didn't. I believe that even if communications were perfect. Even if they had state of the art equipment. Even if no rialry existed. The outcome would have been the same.

                        So not even one more of those 3000 odd lives could have been saved if those problems did not exist?

                        If so then there couldn't have been problems could there? For something to be classified as a problem it must have an impact upon the operational outcome of the rescue, as measured in the loss of lives and property. Now if they had problems it must have had an impact. Otherwise one would have to classify the rescue conditions as optimal.

                        What you seem to be saying is that communication of information had no impact upon rescue and evacuation operations at all. I can't see how that could be possible.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Prester John
                          Now I am not going to enter into the rivalry or whatever, but it would seem there is a case to be made for the communication problems.
                          You asked if the communidation problems made a difference in the outcome and I said...no, it didn't, I believe that even if communications were perfect. Even if the fire department had state of the art equipment. Even if there was no rivalry between the departments, the outcome would have been the same. You cannot have good communications when no one knows whats going on. By the time we knew what was happening both towers had already collapsed.
                          Last edited by Priest; 19 May 04, 22:10.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think Giuliani talked a little about this today and said they didn't have the technology available to offer proper communications between the police and fire. It actually made some interesting points about communications. You may want to take a look at his testimony.

                            Brian

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Scully
                              I think Giuliani talked a little about this today and said they didn't have the technology available to offer proper communications between the police and fire. It actually made some interesting points about communications. You may want to take a look at his testimony.

                              Brian
                              I think this is the stuff that is most important. What can we do now to improve upon things. And for the benefit of New York, have those improvements been made?

                              Even the stuff in the committees report about how the Blackberries were working when the voice channels clagged up. It all should be considered.

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X