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  • #16
    Originally posted by ER_Chaser
    I know what you mean, MZ.

    But that is exactly what I want to say. You cannot take the entire arab world as the habor of terrorism and fight against all of them. That way, you won't win. Yep, if you just wanna go emotional and "feel right", you can yell at the other end of the earth, that "you all suck!". But that does not help. Instead, it will probably make things worse. You have to split them here. You have to make the majority of the Arabs notice that those terrorists are damaging their interests and terrorism is their enemy. Otherwise, I do not see any other option than "nuke them all" ...
    Starve them and terrorism with them. Invest every penny saved by every child and every grandmother in America to build solar energy cells and other natural energy sources. Total committment of the nation. Just like Americans used their savings in WW2 to buy victory bonds. Electric cars, homes heated by the sun, more nuclear energy applications. Don't you understand they win as long as they control the oil? Our SUVs are funding the expansion of Islamic terrorism. Why weren't they a problem before the industrial revolution? Heh? Before the industrial revolution they lived in tent caravans and used camel turd as cooking fuel. They didn't have the millions of dollars to fund suicide airline pilots.
    Last edited by MonsterZero; 11 May 04, 20:32.

    "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
    --Frederick II, King of Prussia

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Deltapooh
      This is a good point, and is synch with the findings of several reports I've read concerning Arab-Western relations. The appearance of support and even encouragement for some of the barbaric and inhuman acts committed by terrorists or militia(whatever you want to call them) is counter-productive. The killing seems to suggest Iraq is not capable of governing itself. It also provides Bush with justification to prolong occupation, which is the objective of the militants. On a broader scale, these acts feeds policies, which either oppresses Arabs (such as US support for Israeli occupation, depending on how one sees that situation), or maintains a negative degree of detachment (such as the "Gas Attendant Doctrine").

      Fortunately, we Americans are better than the terrorists. Imagine what Najaf would like if it Americans beheading an Arab man on video with the terrorists possessing the kind of firepower we have. Najaf would be toast, probably along with Fallujah. I hope our restraint and high regard for life (I admit can be questioned at times) bears more fruit than pain.
      The terrorists have shot the Iraqis (whom they pretend to support) in the foot. This brutal video will defuse the anti-American sentiment (after prisoner abuse) in the West by a factor of at least 50%. It will potentially neutralize the public relations fallout from the prisoner abuse scandal. Those types of videos don't serve the militants in Iraq at all; if I were them I'd play the brutalized helpless victim game as long as possible.
      Last edited by MonsterZero; 11 May 04, 20:39.

      "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
      --Frederick II, King of Prussia

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by MonsterZero
        You really expect the Muslim world to condemn the killing of the hostage? How come, he's an American. They're outraged only when their people suffer; how can you expect that from people who celebrated people falling out the windows on 9/11? There were so many congratulatory Muslim cell phone calls in the US (authorities intercepted some) that the FBI arrested like 1,500 thiniking they were all terrorists reviewing & celebrating the WTC attack. And that's just the tip of the iceberg, isn't it? For every one that gets caught there must be hundreds who didn't.
        MZ, I don't think they will condemn the murder...and that's my point. The Arab world, in my opinion, will never advance as long as their culture accepts this type of behavior. And the religious leaders are the ones to blame here. They are supposed to be the "moral" and "spiritual" leaders. If Islam is not a violent religion, then they should speak out against it. Silence on this issue is equivalent to condoning the behavior in my opinion.

        Take care,
        Brian

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        • #19
          MZ the US not buying oil from them would have little effect. They would just sell it to everybody else.

          Scully I concur 100%.

          The Nuke Them All policy is strongly supported here by plenty of Americans. Fortunatly none of them are in charge but things like this strengthens their numbers. And watch how the world will still be "outraged" at the US's actions and this will be mildly condemed but passed off as buisness as usual.

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          • #20
            I am extremely angry at the moment, and I wish it were easy enough to drop a nuke and kill all the murdering terrorist bastards. But we have a mission to ensure peace in Iraq – we have made that promise – and remain committed to removing the ever present terrorist threat. It will be costly, as it has been in the past, but we can’t be deterred – think of the children whose future lies in our hands: http://www.operationiraqichildren.org/mission.html. There can be no better way to kill a scum sucking terrorist than with the ultimate “smart weapon” – the troops and their sniper rifles. There will be no peace until all the terrorists are dead; god willing, our soldiers will bring peace to Iraq. :flag:

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            • #21
              I agree with jlbetin.

              To MZ:
              if the sides can be split as not just democracy and tyranny, but Americans-Arabs, when someone will play this card. That's why was a mistake start this war as US-decided war. UN (including at least some Arabs) could prevent to split the side as Arabs - non-Arabs.
              If you change (and the American media change) it to American-Arab conflict when this war will last until the last Arab or American. It is very important to remain in retoric at least democracy-tyranny war. Every other war should be stopped and let them (the Arabs) to play their play.

              EDITED (added): Actually I don't care if it is UN or not (so don't start debate on that), but the symbolic used is always American flags, American president, American military leaders. It would have been better to find something new symbolic for this war...
              Last edited by laszlo.nemedi; 11 May 04, 23:23.
              a brain cell

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              • #22
                I fully agree with Laszlo,

                It is mandatory that the operation in Iraq don't become an US Arab/Muslim war, as the hatred against US supporting Israel is so high that it will push low mimded to act as martyr and multiply terrorist actions against USA worldwide.

                I hope the US administration to continue on their fight to keep peace and let return power to Iraq people ASAP.

                If not we will play the worst: "The civilisation War" a new cruzade a new Jihad and we always known as war begins we never known how they finish

                If this case occurs Ben Ladden is the Winner
                Der WanderMayWorldStayInPeace
                Last edited by jlbetin; 12 May 04, 03:40.
                The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
                JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a █ WHQ/SZO/XG/Gamesquad® product since 01/2003
                The Birth of European Army Tournament round Three is opened

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                • #23
                  I hope that the inhumanity of the people responsible for the prison photos feature in the proposed acts of US "revenge". I mean if you are going to screw yourselves you may as well go the whole hog and prove yourselves real idiots too. Either that, or stop talking rubbish and get on with sorting out the mess that has been made, and prevent more friendly casualties.


                  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3700173.stm
                  As for what a real muslim thinks, to see this old Palestinian caretaker crying on TV, at the damage to his lifes work (and his son), especially since it include graves of soldiers of the Light Horse, makes me very sad. Would this have been done without the excuse of the prison photos, I don't think so.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by laszlo.nemedi
                    I agree with jlbetin.

                    To MZ:
                    if the sides can be split as not just democracy and tyranny, but Americans-Arabs, when someone will play this card. That's why was a mistake start this war as US-decided war. UN (including at least some Arabs) could prevent to split the side as Arabs - non-Arabs.
                    If you change (and the American media change) it to American-Arab conflict when this war will last until the last Arab or American. It is very important to remain in retoric at least democracy-tyranny war. Every other war should be stopped and let them (the Arabs) to play their play.

                    EDITED (added): Actually I don't care if it is UN or not (so don't start debate on that), but the symbolic used is always American flags, American president, American military leaders. It would have been better to find something new symbolic for this war...
                    I agree this can not degenerate into an American vs Arab war, no matter how enticing that might become. However, I would be lying if I said it was not an ever-increasing risk. The Arab community is doing just as poor of a job portraying a positive image as Americans are. It is very easy to conclude all Arabs support, if not encourage, the acts of terrorists, which is the same argument people are using about America.

                    Maintaining restraint will require a careful evaluation of what we want to achieve in Iraq, and how to go about it. The more the US continues to commit itself to a strategy doomed to failure, the more likely we are to depart from our ideals of humanity and justice. It would be better to withdraw rather than demoralize the country to a point where we are matching the actions of terrorists.

                    I don't believe the UN or strong international support, in the way of peacekeepers, would prevent the violence we see now. For example: The US had alot of international support in Afghanistan, yet Daniel Pearl was still beheaded. France has been the target of terrorism (or at least the threat of it) and they didn't support the war in Iraq.

                    The terrorists are fighting one political ideal to allow their own to dominate. In that case, it doesn't matter where victims are from. The terrorists only concern would likely be having an impact on a large population.

                    The United Nations' greatest contribution in Iraq would be helping to set-up a working government and elections, as well as running the humanitarian operation. It is better at these tasks than peace-enforcement.

                    As for before the war, I've been doing alot of reading of the diplomatic effort betwee September 2002 and March 2003. I believe there was a good reason for invading Iraq that was supported to some degree by a number of key allies. However, because of the nature of the issue, few people, including Bush were unwilling to use it overtly to justify action.
                    "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Deltapooh
                      ...
                      I don't believe the UN or strong international support, in the way of peacekeepers, would prevent the violence we see now. For example: The US had alot of international support in Afghanistan, yet Daniel Pearl was still beheaded. France has been the target of terrorism (or at least the threat of it) and they didn't support the war in Iraq.
                      ...
                      I agree international involvement cannot solve the terrorism in the world, but at least don't change their criminal act to Islamist Jihad.
                      There is a lot of conflicts in this situation
                      (Iraqis - non Iraqis, Arabs-Christians, democracy fighters-tyranny, Iraqi nations against each other, Iraq-Iran, ex-occupiers(Brits)-freedom fighters, economic reasons, etc...), and the strongest is the religious conflict. And for this conflict there is no resolution in short and long term (see Israel-Arabs, Ireland).
                      To pull out this conflict US should involve a lot of Arabs in the peacemaking, and should not worry if they are from outside or from inside, but they are needed now.
                      Fight against terror is a second to this conflict as so much Arabs live in the world but very few terrorists. If this war becoming a religious war, when most of these Arabs will do things or help anyone to destroy the Western world.
                      a brain cell

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                      • #26
                        For all of you who are blinded by hate for Islam, here's something to hopefully take the hood off of your collective heads...

                        Iraqis Shocked by Beheading, Despair Over Violence
                        By Ghaith Abdul-Ahad

                        BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Most Baghdad residents on Wednesday condemned al Qaeda's beheading of a U.S. civilian in Iraq, but many said his death was just the latest atrocity in a cycle of violence that is driving them to despair.

                        A Web site video showed a masked man cutting off the head of Nick Berg, a 26-year-old civilian, and said al Qaeda's leader in Iraq had personally carried out the killing in revenge for abuses against Iraqi prisoners.

                        Berg went missing last month when dozens of foreigners were seized by guerrillas after Marines launched a crackdown in the city of Falluja. The Marine operation followed the killing and grisly mutilation of four U.S. security guards in the city.

                        "The Americans killed hundreds in Falluja in retaliation for the mutilation of the four Americans and now those people are killing an American in retaliation for the torture of prisoners," said Arkan Mohammad, a cleric at Baghdad University.

                        "Someone has to do something to stop the cycle of violence from going on and on."

                        Even in the Baghdad Sunni Muslim stronghold of Adhamiya, where there is fierce opposition to the occupation, many residents were appalled by the decapitation of Berg.

                        "We denounce this act. No-one can accept the killing of another human being in this horrible way," said Yassir Saleh, a 30-year-old barber. But he too pointed to a tide of violence that has swept the country since the fall of Saddam Hussein.

                        "Sometimes I really can't understand the logic of what is happening, all the violence that I could have never imagined would take place in my country," he said.

                        Many Iraqis say they oppose the U.S.-led occupation but also despise insurgents whose suicide attacks, mortar strikes and bomb blasts have killed far more Iraqis than Americans.

                        Issa al-Khalidi, a 65-year-old pensioner sitting in one of the oldest coffeehouses in Adhamiya, also condemned the killing but looked around nervously as he did.

                        "It's a brutal, inhuman act. As Muslims our religion prohibits us from committing such acts," he said.

                        "People with their own interpretations of Islam are coming to this country and killing left and right, and the Americans are just providing them with the pretext to do so."

                        But some of the city's poorer residents said they supported the killing, arguing it was acceptable retribution for the abuses the U.S. military had committed in Iraq.

                        "This is the price they have to pay for what they have done," said 33-year-old Omar Khateb, a labourer.

                        "It was done according to Islamic Sharia, and the Americans should know that there is a price they will pay for the atrocities they commit."

                        So, basically, you have the same situation as here, in this most Christian of nations. Mostly shock and outrage except for some uneducated, and lower class, yahoos who see the circle of violence as some sort of righteous retribution.
                        I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

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                        • #27
                          I would agree with you James the average Iraqi must be getting tired of the seemingly non-stop carnage. They probibly don't care why it's happening they just see it as getting further out of control and impacting innocent people.

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                          • #28
                            One thing I though about: it took 6 armed Arab militans to kill a single American with his hands tied behind his back. No wonder our notorious prison guard woman was pointing at their dicks and laughing.

                            "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
                            --Frederick II, King of Prussia

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by MonsterZero
                              One thing I though about: it took 6 armed Arab militans to kill a single American with his hands tied behind his back. No wonder our notorious prison guard woman was pointing at their dicks and laughing.
                              If you call that thinking, you're in trouble.
                              "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

                              – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by MikeJ
                                If you call that thinking, you're in trouble.

                                "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
                                --Frederick II, King of Prussia

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