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Palestinian Militant Groups in Serious Trouble?

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  • Palestinian Militant Groups in Serious Trouble?

    I have been thinking about the recent events where Palestinian children were used as (failed) human bombs. I am thinking about these events and comparing to events from the beginning of the intifada. I believe those terror groups are in very serious trouble in terms of their ability to carry out attacks against Israel. These tactics involving children are signs of weakness, desperation and above all, serious impotence.

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...omb/index.html

    "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
    --Frederick II, King of Prussia

  • #2
    Agreed.

    If I was a Palestinian living in a squalid and destroyed house into the Gaza strip like a bunch of crammed cows, I think I would be indeed very desperate and ready to blow myself up at a very young age. No future at all for these guys. Better be dead than living in those conditions

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Tzar
      Agreed.

      If I was a Palestinian living in a squalid and destroyed house into the Gaza strip like a bunch of crammed cows, I think I would be indeed very desperate and ready to blow myself up at a very young age. No future at all for these guys. Better be dead than living in those conditions
      I've never understood this concept. Anything can be achieved if you are determined enough, but blowing yourself up, isn't the way to make things better. There are a hundred ways I can think of, violent and non-violent , these people could do to achieve change. The fact they resort to suicide bombers at all just shows how well the Isreali security forces have gotten.
      "Have you forgotten the face of your father?"

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Tim McBride
        I've never understood this concept. Anything can be achieved if you are determined enough, but blowing yourself up, isn't the way to make things better. There are a hundred ways I can think of, violent and non-violent , these people could do to achieve change. The fact they resort to suicide bombers at all just shows how well the Isreali security forces have gotten.
        I don't think people understand very well what is the daily life of Palestinians.

        I know this has been said before, but it is worth stating it again, since it is not the kind of story that is mentioned very often in the American media, which are heavily biased towards Israel compared to other international medias.

        Since the first arrivals of Jews in Palestine after WWII, Palestinians have been expelled from their lands and houses through wars and conflicts with the Jews. Jews have taken these lands to set up the Jewish state. Palestinians ended up either across the Lebanese border, in Cisjordania, or in the Gaza strip. A lot of others have also been dispersed as the Palestinian diaspora in other Arab states. That has been the fate of the Palestinian people.

        The Palestinians across the Lebanese border and in the Gaza strip have been basically living in refugee camps since 50 YEARS. 50 damn years of misery for millions of people. That misery has spanned 2 or 3 generations now. In front of a Jewish state supported by important powers, as well as a rich Jewish diaspora, there is not much they could do, and that does not even count the fact that Arab states have used them and sacrificed them for their own advantage (remember Black September in 1970). In front of them, they have a well-organized Israeli army, armed with modern weaponry such as tanks, bombers, fighters, rockets, and financed by the US to the tune of billions and billions of American taxpayers' money every year. On their side, they've got what? Well, a couple of rocks coming from their destroyed houses (you see them on the evening news running and throwing rocks in the streets at Israeli soldiers...), and some dynamite that they use to blow themselves to pieces in the middle of Israeli markets.

        Some people might say 50 years of damn misery and poverty is no excuse to blow yourself up in the middle of a public market. Probably. But I think the "self-responsibility" slogan (take your own life in your hands, if you are determined enough you will build a better future) is falling very, but very short for them.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Tzar
          I don't think people understand very well what is the daily life of Palestinians.
          I understand it very well, I just don't see it as an excuse to blow yourself up, there are better ways to resist.

          Since the first arrivals of Jews in Palestine after WWII, Palestinians have been expelled from their lands and houses through wars and conflicts with the Jews. Jews have taken these lands to set up the Jewish state. Palestinians ended up either across the Lebanese border, in Cisjordania, or in the Gaza strip. A lot of others have also been dispersed as the Palestinian diaspora in other Arab states. That has been the fate of the Palestinian people.
          Lets not foget the vast majority left there homes on the their own will, not my fault they thought the Arab Army's would win.
          The Palestinians across the Lebanese border and in the Gaza strip have been basically living in refugee camps since 50 YEARS. 50 damn years of misery for millions of people. That misery has spanned 2 or 3 generations now.
          They could improve their conditions if they choose too. THere is NO reason to live in such squalid conditions.

          In front of a Jewish state supported by important powers, as well as a rich Jewish diaspora, there is not much they could do, and that does not even count the fact that Arab states have used them and sacrificed them for their own advantage (remember Black September in 1970). In front of them, they have a well-organized Israeli army, armed with modern weaponry such as tanks, bombers, fighters, rockets, and financed by the US to the tune of billions and billions of American taxpayers' money every year. On their side, they've got what?
          Some very rich Arab states and Muslim fighters. If the Arab cared about them they could do something. The Palestinins have spent all this time relying on someone who doesn't give two hoots aobut them.

          Well, a couple of rocks coming from their destroyed houses (you see them on the evening news running and throwing rocks in the streets at Israeli soldiers...), and some dynamite that they use to blow themselves to pieces in the middle of Israeli markets.

          Some people might say 50 years of damn misery and poverty is no excuse to blow yourself up in the middle of a public market. Probably. But I think the "self-responsibility" slogan (take your own life in your hands, if you are determined enough you will build a better future) is falling very, but very short for them.
          It isn't an excuse. I am not blaiming them for wanting to resist(not that I agree with their viewpoint) but to blow yourself up is the most stupid way to due it. They have no one but themselves(and their leaders) to blame for their foolish and ineffective resistance. I personally think the leaders want things this way. Otherwise a smart and inform populace just might realize they don't need to support a bunch of crazy terrorists to get their way.
          "Have you forgotten the face of your father?"

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by MonsterZero
            I have been thinking about the recent events where Palestinian children were used as (failed) human bombs. I am thinking about these events and comparing to events from the beginning of the intifada. I believe those terror groups are in very serious trouble in terms of their ability to carry out attacks against Israel. These tactics involving children are signs of weakness, desperation and above all, serious impotence.
            To us in the West this might be true. However, it is not an uncommon practice. NVA forces used children to attack American and South Vietnamese forces. In Africa, kids are drafted at 8yrs into the Army. Others become fighters in militia at similar ages. Tragically, age barriers, and the responsibility of adults toward protecting and guiding children, is not universal.

            I would not be surprised if the Palestinian terrorist used children to carry out bombings. A few years ago Arafat was leaving a hospital where he had visited some of the patients. As he left, some kids across the street shouted "we'll die for you." Arafat just smiled and left, apparently not seeing anything wrong with it.

            In the US, a child can be tried and sentenced as an adult if the crime is serious enough. We expel children who are unrulely, denying them guidance in the hopes of saving others. Gangs use children to carry out crime. We might hold adults who misguide children accountable, but more and more everyday, our society struggles with the degree of innocence children has.

            I don't approve of this new strategy, and think even less of the Palestinian terrorists (didn't know that was possible until just now). Yet, I don't believe it will effect their efforts, which is already considered immoral by many.
            "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

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            • #7
              You'd think someone in the Palestinian camp would read 'Guerilla Warfare' by Che and get a clue or something.....
              "Have you forgotten the face of your father?"

              Comment


              • #8
                Hello,

                I would like to mention that many famous militant leaders almost never use their own children as suicide bombers. Yassin has children, and he never uses them. Yet, Yassin was more than willing to send out the other Palestinian children to blow themselves up. This is hypocrisy.

                Dan
                Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                "Aim small, miss small."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cheetah772
                  Hello,

                  I would like to mention that many famous militant leaders almost never use their own children as suicide bombers. Yassin has children, and he never uses them. Yet, Yassin was more than willing to send out the other Palestinian children to blow themselves up. This is hypocrisy.

                  Dan

                  Univerisal amongst politcians of most any kind
                  "Have you forgotten the face of your father?"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tim McBride
                    Some very rich Arab states and Muslim fighters. If the Arab cared about them they could do something. The Palestinins have spent all this time relying on someone who doesn't give two hoots aobut them.
                    I believe alot of this support will evaporate once Palestinians achieve statehood. And I also think Arafat knows this. Support in part, is to keep Palestinians from destablizing neighboring states. It is tragic Palestinians have yet to figure this out. Then again, they might have, but see little choice except accept food from dirty hands.
                    "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      To us in the West this might be true. However, it is not an uncommon practice. NVA forces used children to attack American and South Vietnamese forces. In Africa, kids are drafted at 8yrs into the Army. Others become fighters in militia at similar ages. Tragically, age barriers, and the responsibility of adults toward protecting and guiding children is not universal.
                      Using children in a military force is considered as a crim of war. And certainly something you can add to the Hamas's list.

                      LaPalice.
                      Monsieur de La Palice est mort
                      Mort devant Pavie.
                      Un quart d'heure avant sa mort
                      Il était encore en vie...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by LaPalice
                        Using children in a military force is considered as a crim of war. And certainly something you can add to the Hamas's list.

                        LaPalice.
                        It is still a common practice in places like Africa where the rules of war are pretty much thrown out the window.
                        "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There is one more explanation of these lame child attacks. I hope I'm wrong.

                          The big boys: Hamas, Al-Aqsa Martyrs and so on haven't struck yet. They're still in the planning stage because they want to be extra deadly (so they're taking extra planning time).

                          The children are sent by some morons acting on their own, outside of the main organizations.

                          "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
                          --Frederick II, King of Prussia

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tim McBride
                            You'd think someone in the Palestinian camp would read 'Guerilla Warfare' by Che and get a clue or something.....
                            Or how about something by Martin Luther King or Indira Ghandi?
                            ...a man that can stand up for a principle and sit down on his own stool.
                            -the Firesign Theatre

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Time McBride
                              Lets not foget the vast majority left there homes on the their own will, not my fault they thought the Arab Army's would win.
                              Yeah, they're crazy to leave a warzone. They should stay in their homes and die (or get massacred). The propoganda coming out of the pro-Israel camp about Arab leaders broadcasting to Palestinians to flee is totally without merit. News agencies the world over were monitoring all radio and not a single instance has any record in their archives (that's been found anyways, but after 50 years I'd say it's a safe bet that there aren't any) of anybody significant telling Palestinians to leave. On the other hand, the ethnic cleansing by the IDF was all over the airwaves.

                              But, supposing that the Palestinians all left because they thought the Arabs would win, that does not remove their right to return, as refugees. Denying this fundamental right would be endorsing ethnic cleansing.

                              They could improve their conditions if they choose too. THere is NO reason to live in such squalid conditions.
                              Yep, people want to be poor, what the hell were we thinking?

                              The tens of millions of unemployed Ameicans right now - they're obviously all lazy bums who just don't want to work because there are so many jobs available.

                              That's not to say this doesn't happen - but if we're going to be painting everybody with one, broad stroke then I might as well resopnd in kind.

                              I am not blaiming them for wanting to resist(not that I agree with their viewpoint) but to blow yourself up is the most stupid way to due it.
                              What would you have them do? Guerilla warfare? If you haven't been paying attention, everytime Palestinian gunmen get into shootouts with Israelis they get massacred, with few exceptions. They kill far more Israelis with suicide bombings and frankly, the suicide bombings resound far more than some gunmen shooting Israeli settlers does.

                              I'm not justifying it here, but you are attacking their MO as lacking merit, when there is probably no better alternative for armed resistence.

                              Otherwise a smart and inform populace just might realize they don't need to support a bunch of crazy terrorists to get their way.
                              Jews are disproportionately well-educated and when it comes to academics and achievement they are probably unmatched. Yet they've been electing former (and arguably, some still are) terrorists and hardline military leaders for decades.

                              If we measure them by Western standards - boy that's a pretty low bar. People in the west have so much information available to them and it's all so convenient - yet the vast majority of the voter base do not even make the attempt to inform themselves.

                              Naturally, the smart thing to do for the Palestinians would be to cease all armed-resistence and just die like flies for a while... eventually Sharon would be unable to continue his provocation as the political price would be too high. Fortunately for him, Hamas (which he helped create to weaken the PLO) is as predictable as he is. He bombs them, they bomb him. It's a happy circle which perpetuates their respective grips on power.
                              Last edited by MikeJ; 25 Mar 04, 21:36.
                              "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

                              – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

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