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  • I bet Hamas subscribed to this

    http://www.interestingprojects.com/cruisemissile/

    $5,000, off-the-shelf components and the result is a GPS guided cruise missile as a result.
    "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

    – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

  • #2
    I don't he'll be able to develop a program capable of accurately guiding the missile at low levels. Tomahawks are still equipped with a mapping system that allows it to properly adjust altitude.

    Still, if this guy does manage to build a working system that is even somewhat accurate, it would likely alter defense-thinking globally. Right now, we know the cruise missile threat exists. Yet, most governments are using "the Ostrich Doctrine." Prior to 9/11, Tom Clancy asked a NORAD commander about the possibly of terrorist using a jetliner as a guided-bomb. The commander's reply was, "we don't have anyone working on that now, but will tomorrow." Tragically, we continued to be stupid.

    People must see something to believe. Most of the west see Arab terrorists as a bunch of stupid, murderous fanatics who have a hard time working a tiolet, let alone developing ingenious ways to promote their political ideals.

    If this guy does succeed, Ashcroft is going to throw him in jail forever. In 1996, a man bought Anthrax from an American lab to show CNN how easy it was. The FBI arrested him. I guess they were pissed off someone exposed their inability to actually stop terrorism.

    The most dangerous weapons on Earth are the human brain, and one's will to succeed.
    "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Deltapooh
      I don't he'll be able to develop a program capable of accurately guiding the missile at low levels. Tomahawks are still equipped with a mapping system that allows it to properly adjust altitude.
      Well, in a terrorist context is that really necessary? Cities worth hitting tend to be large. GPS guidance is probably not used to necessarily be extremely precise, but because it would be a cost efficient (and easily procured) way to guide the missile to its target.

      Not to mention Galileo is officially a go now, which means there will probably be another system to use if the US shuts down its GPS network for security reasons.

      I think I read somewhere that the EU is planning on eventually using the Galileo system to run transport. Cars, trucks, airplanes, etc could all become dependant on GPS/Galileo, which means emergency shut downs would probably not be possible.
      "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

      – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

      Comment


      • #4
        His payload is only 22kg, range is limited to 100miles.......

        A Tomahawk can carry roughly a 1,000 pound warhead, a distance of 700+ miles.........

        22kg is a small amount of RDX, car bombs are more effective and they have the people willing to deliver them
        "Have you forgotten the face of your father?"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Tim McBride
          His payload is only 22kg, range is limited to 100miles.......

          A Tomahawk can carry roughly a 1,000 pound warhead, a distance of 700+ miles.........

          22kg is a small amount of RDX, car bombs are more effective and they have the people willing to deliver them
          Probably enough for a so called "dirty bomb" though. Or even chemical or biological warheads if they can figure out an adequate means of dispersal.
          Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by tigersqn


            Probably enough for a so called "dirty bomb" though. Or even chemical or biological warheads if they can figure out an adequate means of dispersal.
            Perhaps, Uranium and Plutoniam are very heavy dense materials though; I wonder if you could get enough in the payload, since you need explosives and a detinator(Something that is a proximity system(ie for an airburst), since an impact explosive of a dirty bomb would lessen the effect)
            "Have you forgotten the face of your father?"

            Comment


            • #7
              The advantage to something like this over a car bomb is that you don't need access to whatever you're trying to hit.

              I bet with a slightly larger investment the range could be increased (while keeping the size reasonably small) and its real use from a terrorist perspective would be for groups like Hamas or Hezbollah to fire rockets into Israeli population centers.

              How it might affect the US? Well, something as small and mobile as this can be fired off a boat presumably. Don't even need to enter the US to hit many of the densest population centers in North America. With no way to cover every inch of territorial waters efficiently it would render useless all the increased port security and customs checks intended to prevent WMD delivery into the continental US.
              "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

              – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MikeJ


                Well, in a terrorist context is that really necessary? Cities worth hitting tend to be large. GPS guidance is probably not used to necessarily be extremely precise, but because it would be a cost efficient (and easily procured) way to guide the missile to its target.

                Not to mention Galileo is officially a go now, which means there will probably be another system to use if the US shuts down its GPS network for security reasons.

                I think I read somewhere that the EU is planning on eventually using the Galileo system to run transport. Cars, trucks, airplanes, etc could all become dependant on GPS/Galileo, which means emergency shut downs would probably not be possible.
                The missile would need to fly very low to avoid radar. Depending on it's path, that could push the missile to altitudes where defensive forces can detect and possibly intercept them. Yet, if it's coming in from the sea to hit a costal city, it could fly low and avoid obstacles.

                One solution would be to design a program similar to what is used in Tomahawks. You simply input varying altitudes for GPS locations. As the missile passes that point, it changes altitude. It's not perfect, but can't be too difficult.

                Tomahawks are so expensive because of all the things they can do. However, terrorist don't need things like update capabilities, heavy payloads, and long ranges. All they need is to get the missile from point A to point B without being destroyed.

                GPS is still not exact. The military using codes can get reading down to a few feet. Civilian accuracy is far less. However, again, as MikeJ, accuracy is not the most important thing.

                Probably enough for a so called "dirty bomb" though. Or even chemical or biological warheads if they can figure out an adequate means of dispersal.
                I'm confident once it is proven, people will feel justified in funding payload and range increases. 22kg isn't alot. As Tim McBride pointed out, you need the means to make the weapon effective. That can eat up weight as well. However a GPS or timed fuse shouldn't weigh too much. I'm also certain the terrorist could get their hands on altitude based fuses.

                Either way, cruise missiles are a dangerous threat I don't believe the government is doing enough to address.
                "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tim McBride

                  Perhaps, Uranium and Plutoniam are very heavy dense materials though; I wonder if you could get enough in the payload, since you need explosives and a detinator(Something that is a proximity system(ie for an airburst), since an impact explosive of a dirty bomb would lessen the effect)
                  There are other, less dense materials (and easier to obtain) which could be used in the manufacture of a "dirty bomb"; such as Cesium 137, Cobalt 57, Strontium 85, etc..... Although the applicable materials have varying levels of radioactivity, any detected radioactivity in a terrorist explosion would be sure to cause a wave of panic in the surrounding area. This, ultimately, is the goal of the terrorist; to sow fear.
                  Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The missile would need to fly very low to avoid radar
                    I don't see any real need for this kind of weapon to avoid radar.
                    "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

                    – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      People must see something to believe. Most of the west see Arab terrorists as a bunch of stupid, murderous fanatics who have a hard time working a tiolet, let alone developing ingenious ways to promote their political ideals.
                      But actually this is probably a fairly accurate assessment. What has been the net result of the Palestinian uprising? A delay of Israeli withdrawal from the west bank! if not for the uprising the Pals would have had an autonomous zone Juden Frie as it were two years ago at least. What was the net result of 9/11? A political windfall for the anti Arab, Fascist, political right, in the US. The destruction of a Moslem fundamentalist state. The creation of an environment in which terrorist operations are much more difficult to execute. The near destruction of the largest Moslem terrorist network on the planet. The destruction of Sadams regime. Yeah them Moslem fanatics are real crafty indeed:^)
                      Regime Change It Starts At Home

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by LanceRunolfsson

                        But actually this is probably a fairly accurate assessment. What has been the net result of the Palestinian uprising? A delay of Israeli withdrawal from the west bank! if not for the uprising the Pals would have had an autonomous zone Juden Frie as it were two years ago at least. What was the net result of 9/11? A political windfall for the anti Arab, Fascist, political right, in the US. The destruction of a Moslem fundamentalist state. The creation of an environment in which terrorist operations are much more difficult to execute. The near destruction of the largest Moslem terrorist network on the planet. The destruction of Sadams regime. Yeah them Moslem fanatics are real crafty indeed:^)
                        What would have been the net result of no Palestinian uprising? Settlement expansion. What happened when Palestinians weren't blowing themselves up? The world forgot about them. Status quo was fine.

                        Sadly, it's only when people are dying that the idea of a Palestinian state gets attention.

                        As for Al Qaeda, perhaps the only way they're getting their fringe ideology mainstream (which is in turn the only way they're going to see a unified Islamic state) is by giving them an external enemy they can unite against.

                        From a purely logical standpoint, 9/11 was the move Al Qaeda had to eventually make.

                        How else were they going to achieve their objectives?
                        "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

                        – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          What would have been the net result of no Palestinian uprising?
                          Mike,
                          What was going on was a phased withdrawal of Israeli troops from the West Bank and the Land for peace initiative very stupid for the Israelis but they were doing it. The uprising and the assassination of the Israeli prime minster by an Jewish orthodox fanatic put this all to a halt. Really all the uprising has accomplished is reminding most Israelis that the Arabs will never tolerate the existence of a Jewish state in Israel (I'm not necessarily saying that there should be one just pointing up facts.). Though the current peace plan has the Israeli government recognizing the possibility of a Palestine unlike Americans the Israelis are not naive enough to truly belive that the Arab idea of a Palestine will not always be one that includes the entirety of the old British mandate. The problem with the Pals is that there are so many of them that are so stupid that they want an all or nothing outcome now. And will not accept an interim "improvement" in their condition. Neither side occupies a moral high ground OTH the Pals are in a position to "improve" their current position where the Israelis are not. The reason I keep putting "improve" in quotes is because when they are not revolting Arabs in Israel have much better living conditions than in most of the Arab world.
                          Regime Change It Starts At Home

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            From a purely logical standpoint, 9/11 was the move Al Qaeda had to eventually make.
                            If their goal was the destruction of themselves and the Taliban and the US occupation of two Moslem Nations then they have succeeded brilliantly. The worst thing that ever happened to any Arab was the withdrawal of the European Colonial powers after WWII. The Moslem has displayed such startling incapacity for self governance. That it would seem that foreign occupation no matter how brutal or repressive would be an improvement for them over any thing they are capable of producing themselves.
                            Regime Change It Starts At Home

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LanceRunolfsson

                              What was going on was a phased withdrawal of Israeli troops from the West Bank and the Land for peace initiative very stupid for the Israelis but they were doing it. The uprising and the assassination of the Israeli prime minster by an Jewish orthodox fanatic put this all to a halt.
                              The second intifada and the sporadic violence that preceeded came much too late for a link to be established here.

                              After Rabin's assasination, the phased withdrawl was not completed. Settlement expansion rapidly increased under Netanyahu.

                              The uprising didn't begin until several years later.


                              Really all the uprising has accomplished is reminding most Israelis that the Arabs will never tolerate the existence of a Jewish state in Israel (I'm not necessarily saying that there should be one just pointing up facts.).
                              Not to condone it, but as I said earlier, it seems to be the only time the international community tries to deal with the issue - when violence is high. Under Netanyahu the level of violence was tolerable to the world community and the peace process was totally stalled. Nobody outside the immediate region gave a damn, because the violence wasn't flooding their daily news.


                              Though the current peace plan has the Israeli government recognizing the possibility of a Palestine unlike Americans the Israelis are not naive enough to truly belive that the Arab idea of a Palestine will not always be one that includes the entirety of the old British mandate. The problem with the Pals is that there are so many of them that are so stupid that they want an all or nothing outcome now. And will not accept an interim "improvement" in their condition. Neither side occupies a moral high ground OTH the Pals are in a position to "improve" their current position where the Israelis are not. The reason I keep putting "improve" in quotes is because when they are not revolting Arabs in Israel have much better living conditions than in most of the Arab world. [/B]
                              Well the Arab league did offer to normalize relations for adherance to the principles of the Oslo accord.

                              Palestinian polls show distinct cause and effect relationships between the peace process and terror. Most polls seem to indicate that only a small minority ( I think around 20%? ) believe Palestine should include all of the British mandate. Most seem to equate Palestine with West Bank + Gaza. An important note that support for the terrorists (whose stated goal is the destruction of Israel) does not mean support for their goals. It may just mean support for anyone who is fighting the guys rolling tanks up and down their streets, or support for the social programs (upon which many in the occupied territories rely) of organizations like Hamas.
                              "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

                              – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

                              Comment

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