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  • #16
    Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
    That is generally not true. I can pay 100 $ to anybody who finds statements like this in modern Russian school or university textbooks, encyclopedias or other mainstream reference material. Then it ignores mostly harmonious relations between Russia and Belarus who are even more close culturally. I said it many times ans repeat it again: Belarus is a thinking man's Ukraine. It demonstrates how Ukraine could build a succesfull independent state if she had a functional political class.
    How did Byelarus avoid the "Right Bank/Left Bank" divide that afflicts Ukraine? Surely Byelarus experienced significant Polish influence during her history too.
    I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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    • #17
      Thanks to iron fist of the president.
      There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

        Not all that surprising - there's centuries of common history there, and the differences are presumably mostly political in nature...

        perhaps comparable to The Netherlands/Belgium ?
        Ukraine is pretty much like Belgium in many aspects.
        There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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        • #19
          Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
          How did Byelarus avoid the "Right Bank/Left Bank" divide that afflicts Ukraine?
          Smaller country, more cohesive, with "hobbit mentality" and historically feeble ethnic nationalism.

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          • #20
            So long as the Ukraine remains independent, all is well.
            Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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            • #21
              It never was.
              There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
                Smaller country, more cohesive, with "hobbit mentality" and historically feeble ethnic nationalism.
                Doesn't Minsk lie astride the main route from Warsaw to Moscow? Didn't Polish forces occupy significant tracts of what is today Byelarus during much of the 16th and 17th centuries? Even today there remains small but statistically significant Catholic minorities -- Latin and Uniat both -- in Byelarus. Later on wasn't that Napoleon's route to Moscow, as well as the German's a century later? I'm just a little confused why there isn't the apparent Western influence in Byelarus as there is in Ukraine is all. It's certainly not for lack of exposure.
                I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

                  Doesn't Minsk lie astride the main route from Warsaw to Moscow? Didn't Polish forces occupy significant tracts of what is today Byelarus during much of the 16th and 17th centuries? Even today there remains small but statistically significant Catholic minorities -- Latin and Uniat both -- in Byelarus. Later on wasn't that Napoleon's route to Moscow, as well as the German's a century later? I'm just a little confused why there isn't the apparent Western influence in Byelarus as there is in Ukraine is all. It's certainly not for lack of exposure.
                  Stalin-era purges?
                  Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post

                    Stalin-era purges?
                    Possibly, but I'm aware of no strong Byelarussian nationalist sentiment at any time, either during the Imperial era, or after the October Revolution. Then again, it's quite possible that I simply do not know enough about Byelarussian history to formulate an intelligent opinion one way or the other.
                    I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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                    • #25
                      Check the article here:
                      https://eng.globalaffairs.ru/number/...-Russias-19610

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                      • #26
                        Belarus was once part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania but Poland had a long standing claim to parts of it which had many ethnic Poles. By the end of the 18th century, like Poland, it was partitioned between Russia, Prussia and Austria and again like Poland there were insurrections seeking independence in the 18th and 19th century (1794 & 1864-5). In 1903 an independence party was founded but later imperial crackdowns saw tens of thousands deported to Siberia. During WW1 the Germans occupied the territory but in March 1918 with German support Bylorus declared independence. This was short lived as in November 1918 German support was withdrawn. Fighting then broke out between the Soviets and the Poles and when this war was concluded the country was once again partitioned - between the Poles and the Soviets this time The country suffered very badly in the famine following collectivisation and was also purged by Stalin with over 80,000 imprisoned and just under 30,000 executed. In 1941 the Germans arrived again and liquidation centres established in which almost all the country's Jews perished along with others deported from other occupied territories and an unknown but not insignificant number of Bylorus accused of partisan activities.
                        The Yalta conference transferred the Polish part to the Soviet Union and many ethnic Poles had to leave.

                        History has not been kind to the country
                        Last edited by MarkV; 25 Mar 19, 10:50.
                        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

                          Possibly, but I'm aware of no strong Byelarussian nationalist sentiment at any time, either during the Imperial era, or after the October Revolution. Then again, it's quite possible that I simply do not know enough about Byelarussian history to formulate an intelligent opinion one way or the other.
                          Neither am I, but looking at a map, it looks like that region caught hell in both WW1 and WW2. That could explain a population without the sort of strong regional ties such as the Ukraine.

                          But I'm just guessing.
                          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post

                            Neither am I, but looking at a map, it looks like that region caught hell in both WW1 and WW2. That could explain a population without the sort of strong regional ties such as the Ukraine.

                            But I'm just guessing.
                            But Ukraine and Byelarus share a history of being invaders' doormats: Mongols, Poles, Swedes, Turks, Tartars, Russians, Soviets, Germans. They've all had a go at both countries.

                            Byelarus did not, to the best of my knowledge, develop bands of Cossacks. Cossacks were roughly analogous to the Pirates of the Carribbean: they existed where empires rubbed together, and through a combination of force and guile, they carved out a space for themselves. Their loyalties shifted, depending on from where the winds of self-interest blew, at least during the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries. (By the early 19th century the Empire had the Zaparozhye Sich disbanded, and the Cossacks exiled, mostly to Kuban, who were themselves annihilated by the Red Army in 1920-21.) Because they were not truly loyal to any one of the neighboring empires, they were flexible in their approach -- and they appealed to romantics of the 19th and 20th centuries, not unlike Highland Jacobites appealed to British romantics of the same eras.



                            Ilya Iefimovich Repin's Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks to Sultan Mehmed IV of the Ottoman Empire completed in 1891 is an example of the romantic appeal of the Cossacks in the late 19th century. Cossack lore has long been inseparable from Ukrainian nationalism: Nokolai Vasileyevich Hohol and Taras Hryhorovych Shevchenko came to define Ukrainian nationalism in romantic terms during the 19th century, the latter to the degree that his works were suppressed by both the Imperial and the Soviet authorities. To the best of my knowledge, Byelarus enjoys no such mythology, and no such artists. That might explain some of the difference, though in more concrete terms, Artyom's link was far more revealing. Спасибо Тёма.
                            I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

                              But Ukraine and Byelarus share a history of being invaders' doormats: Mongols, Poles, Swedes, Turks, Tartars, Russians, Soviets, Germans. They've all had a go at both countries.
                              The rising of 1864/5 appears to have been particularly fierce and bloody (but not as romantic as the Polish). Bylarus claims to have had the largest partisan movement in Europe prior to 1944. Bigger than the Polish Home Army - hardly being a doormat
                              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                                Bylarus claims to have had the largest partisan movement in Europe prior to 1944. Bigger than the Polish Home Army - hardly being a doormat
                                They had a partisan movement, sure -- but that didn't keep either the Nazis or the Commies out, nor did it save thousands whom both regimes slaughtered.

                                By "doormat," I wasn't insinuating their either Ukrainians or Byelarusians don't fight. I'm saying that both countries have been hammered by invaders countless times over the centuries, because they both lie astride routes of transport and communication. Both of them fight, but often have they lost. Maybe instead of "doormat," I should have called them victims of their neighbors on account of the access that possession of their lands afford.
                                I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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