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  • Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
    Too small. Too tightly clustered. Without signs of impact detonations. All which point against it being from a cannon.
    I'm still not sure in this...
    Also check this article.
    https://my.news.yahoo.com/us-analyst...002021930.html

    You still seem to be imagining that the airliner was a static target. It may not have been evading but it still flew at 900 km/h. Given how limited Buk's range is at targets at high altitude the airliner would fly through the engagement envelope in just couple of minutes.
    Again, there were no evidences of "Buk" launch. And I consider gunfire coupled with air-to-air missile also possible.
    Btw, did you notice that there were no any photos of mysterious rebels "Buk" any more?

    Radar guided missile hitting the main fuselage from which the main radar return is created is not exactly surprising. Had it steered towards some other part of the aircraft then it would have been surprising. You do understand that are almost claiming among the similar lines that person ought to be surprised when a heat seeking missile homes on to the engines?
    Then why it can't be air-to-air missile if it was not IR-guided, but radar guided one?

    nope
    this investigation denies ukrainian version
    http://tok-krupp.livejournal.com/98323.html

    If the target was stationary - then yes. However in this case the shorter distance only means vastly increased angular velocity which makes it much more difficult to place hits into a small cluster instead of easier. Keep in mind that shorter distance does not change the little detail that the target was still moving at 250 meters per second - keep in mind that guns couldn't really do more than 50 rounds per second, that still allows plane to move forward (and past the aiming point) five meters between individual bullets.
    Ok, seems we won't agree here in total.
    I agree that at high speed concentration of holes is quite high.
    I disagree that the only one source of holes can be "Buk" system
    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

    Comment


    • Originally posted by amvas View Post
      I'm still not sure in this...
      Also check this article.
      https://my.news.yahoo.com/us-analyst...002021930.html
      That is the 'same old, same old'. Those how saw the certain pieces of wreckage said it was as if it had been by almost looks like machinegun fire - not that it would have been hit by machine gun fire. Second, cannon is whole lot different thing than a machine gun.

      In fact the 'marvelous' theory presented in that article would have required two (2) fighters approaching the MH17 from different sides attacking it with cannons simultaneously with both hitting the nose of the target aircraft with several shots while target is flying past at 900 km/h all the while being invisible to the Russia radar which detected grand total of zero (0) targets close to the MH17 prior to the point where MH17 started breaking up. Which makes the theory into a nice fantasy tale in cinematic 'Battler Britton' style but has nothing to do with reality.

      Again, there were no evidences of "Buk" launch. And I consider gunfire coupled with air-to-air missile also possible.
      Btw, did you notice that there were no any photos of mysterious rebels "Buk" any more?
      Getting rid of a launcher in an area where stuff keeps blowing up doesn't seem to be too difficult to accomplish. Either that or driving it into a river, or to Russia. Plenty of options of getting rid of one.

      Then why it can't be air-to-air missile if it was not IR-guided, but radar guided one?
      Su-25 doesn't carry any is one of the key problems with that idea. Another is that AA missiles typically carry continuous rod type warheads instead of blast fragmentation warheads (such warheads do cause some fragmentation damage so it is not totally excluded). With radar guided missile version you need to wonder why didn't the Russians pick it or the aircraft firing it up. An approach from the direction of the Russian radar station is pretty much need to get the missile to explode in front of the airliner but Russian radar didn't detect any aircraft doing such.

      nope
      this investigation denies ukrainian version
      http://tok-krupp.livejournal.com/98323.html
      Actually there is nothing in that disproving what i just posted in the links. You really ought to read those. Weather claim is a moot point. Distance and direction of the shots were totally different. And the location claim made in the link you posted is false as well. I suggest reading the pages i linked to.

      Ok, seems we won't agree here in total.
      I agree that at high speed concentration of holes is quite high.
      I disagree that the only one source of holes can be "Buk" system
      It is not the only source. But of the options 'cannon fire', 'heat seeking missile' or 'Buk' it from the evidence shown appear the be the only possible one.
      It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Rojik View Post
        Do we have an independent report?

        Until then this is only fit for toilet paper.
        Due on Tuesday. It will set out the evidence for what happened but not allocate blame - sounds like it will confirm the ground to air missile, but not try to identify who fired it.

        Comment


        • To Vaeltaja: Probably will be mostly offline until Monday been outside Moscow. Will reply later
          If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

          Comment


          • http://online.wsj.com/articles/malay...LEFTTopStories

            Just a heads up, But it looks like the seps and the Russians got the blood on their hands...
            Credo quia absurdum.


            Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
              http://online.wsj.com/articles/malay...LEFTTopStories

              Just a heads up, But it looks like the seps and the Russians got the blood on their hands...
              You are spreading unsubstantiated rumors, that betray your bias:

              Here is some evidence to the contrary you posted:
              The last minutes of the flight MH17 had not been on NATO AWAKS radar, said the Federal Government. For the use of ground-to-air missiles there was "no reliable evidence", it said.
              On the question, what information does the federal government to activities of missile on the day of the crash, it says, is let out to the available information "no reliable evidence on any missions of air defense missiles against the aircraft (MH17) derived".
              http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/flug-...-a-990288.html

              When asked what information U.S. reconnaissance satellites were delivered to crash MH17, writes the federal government, an open answer is not possible for intelligence reasons. Instead, the opinion would qualify for inclusion in this point as "secret" and filed with the Secret Protection Office of the Bundestag.
              Secretive, Berlin is also the question of what radio messages were intercepted in connection with the plane crash.

              Comment


              • MH17 disaster: Russians 'controlled BUK missile system'

                Russians were operating a BUK missile launcher seen in the area where the Malaysia Airlines passenger jet MH17 were shot down, eyewitnesses have told Panorama.
                Distinctive shrapnel damage to the plane points to a fragmentation weapon - such as a BUK - downing the plane.
                The Kremlin had previously suggested that the missile was from a Ukrainian fighter jet.
                Pro-Russian rebels have denied any possession of a BUK.
                However, photographs and videos cast doubt on the claim by the Kremlin and pro-Russian rebels - that they did not have a BUK missile launcher on their territory.
                Three eyewitnesses, all civilians, separately told Panorama that they saw a missile-launcher in rebel-held territory a few hours before the Boeing jet was hit.
                One eyewitness saw the missile-launcher roll off a low-loader at Snezhnoye, around ten miles from the crash site, at around 13:30 local time (10:30 GMT).
                "We just saw it being offloaded and when the BUK started its engine the exhaust smoke filled the whole town square," he said.
                'Pure Russian accents' The eyewitness told the BBC that the crew struck him as Russian soldiers: "Well-disciplined, unlike the rebels, and not wearing the standard Ukrainian camouflage uniform sported by government and rebel troops alike."
                "They had pure Russian accents. They say the letter 'g' differently to us," he said.
                In eastern Ukraine, most people speak Russian but the BUK crew did not speak Russian with a local accent.


                More here...


                http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29109398


                Credo quia absurdum.


                Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                Comment


                • Cue the rabid denials in 3...2...1...
                  "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                    Russians were operating a BUK missile launcher seen in the area where the Malaysia Airlines passenger jet MH17 were shot down, eyewitnesses have told Panorama.
                    Distinctive shrapnel damage to the plane points to a fragmentation weapon - such as a BUK - downing the plane.
                    The Kremlin had previously suggested that the missile was from a Ukrainian fighter jet.
                    Pro-Russian rebels have denied any possession of a BUK.
                    However, photographs and videos cast doubt on the claim by the Kremlin and pro-Russian rebels - that they did not have a BUK missile launcher on their territory.
                    Three eyewitnesses, all civilians, separately told Panorama that they saw a missile-launcher in rebel-held territory a few hours before the Boeing jet was hit.
                    One eyewitness saw the missile-launcher roll off a low-loader at Snezhnoye, around ten miles from the crash site, at around 13:30 local time (10:30 GMT).
                    "We just saw it being offloaded and when the BUK started its engine the exhaust smoke filled the whole town square," he said.
                    'Pure Russian accents' The eyewitness told the BBC that the crew struck him as Russian soldiers: "Well-disciplined, unlike the rebels, and not wearing the standard Ukrainian camouflage uniform sported by government and rebel troops alike."
                    "They had pure Russian accents. They say the letter 'g' differently to us," he said.
                    In eastern Ukraine, most people speak Russian but the BUK crew did not speak Russian with a local accent.


                    More here...


                    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29109398


                    You didn't read the link I posted in the reply.

                    Comment


                    • Again:

                      Read it first, and than start again.
                      That is, if it's possible for you, to go around your bias.

                      http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/flug-...-a-990288.html

                      Comment


                      • Sorry dude Der Spiegle? That rag???
                        Credo quia absurdum.


                        Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
                          Sorry dude Der Spiegle? That rag???
                          Yes, they still have some credibility left.

                          Comment


                          • I have no plausible theory of my own, but one just has to listen to eyewitness accounts, immediately after the tragedy. Or just look at the VERY conspicuous trail that BUK system missile launch and ascension leaves in BROAD DAYLIGHT.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
                              Cue the rabid denials in 3...2...1...
                              Seven minutes before they react to defend their murderous master. Seem to be quite a few on duty tonight.
                              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Konzev View Post
                                Yes, they still have some credibility left.

                                Possibly only slightly more credibility than Russian gov't controlled media.
                                Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                                Comment

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