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EU report: Georgian attack started war with Russia

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  • EU report: Georgian attack started war with Russia

    Not sure if people are still following this, but I figured some might find this interesting.

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...6etqQD9B1N8381

    Or, for those who prefer a bit more gloating in their news pieces:

    http://exiledonline.com/the-czar-of-...mes-toldja-so/

    Anyway, enjoy.

  • #2
    The report itself.

    http://www.ceiig.ch/Report.html
    “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

    Max Sterner

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    • #3
      With this report finally out, I believe this South Ossetian Conflict sub-forum should be removed from Current Events.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Erkki View Post
        thanks for the report Erkki been looking for it.

        btw did the report change anyones mind or present any new evidence.
        Or glaring errors.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by xiong View Post
          With this report finally out, I believe this South Ossetian Conflict sub-forum should be removed from Current Events.
          Any recommendation for a history section to put it in?
          "Put guards on all the roads, and don't let the men run to the rear."
          Major General John Buford's final words on his deathbed.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by xiong View Post
            this South Ossetian Conflict sub-forum should be removed
            - i second that .

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by craven View Post
              thanks for the report Erkki been looking for it.

              btw did the report change anyones mind or present any new evidence.
              Or glaring errors.
              Not really. Unfortunately they didn't do much independent research as I was hoping. It looks like they just gathered material from the sides and interviewed some higher officials. I was expecting for a more hands on approach with witness interviews and more access to actual intel material (I guess the latter was an unreasonable expectation, as I doubt neither side is willing to disclose anything that might jeopardize future operations).

              AP for example did not include the qualifier present in the report that the shelling would have been legal if it was found that SO was bombarding the villages or that Russian troops had in fact initiated the invasion. Two critical facts which they say they don't have sufficient information to determine. Other such important questions left unanswered is whether Georgians attacked the Russian troops in SO first or vice versa.

              The report is a good collection of claims made by both sides and the relevant legal arguments. Thanks Erkki for digging it up.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Widow Maker View Post
                Any recommendation for a history section to put it in?
                Sorry, no idea. Let the moders decide. Maybe create something like Post-Cold War conflicts in Europe?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by pp(est) View Post
                  Not really. Unfortunately they didn't do much independent research as I was hoping. It looks like they just gathered material from the sides and interviewed some higher officials. I was expecting for a more hands on approach with witness interviews and more access to actual intel material (I guess the latter was an unreasonable expectation, as I doubt neither side is willing to disclose anything that might jeopardize future operations).

                  AP for example did not include the qualifier present in the report that the shelling would have been legal if it was found that SO was bombarding the villages or that Russian troops had in fact initiated the invasion. Two critical facts which they say they don't have sufficient information to determine. Other such important questions left unanswered is whether Georgians attacked the Russian troops in SO first or vice versa.

                  The report is a good collection of claims made by both sides and the relevant legal arguments. Thanks Erkki for digging it up.
                  I agree about the independent research.
                  The things I got from this is the Russians fail to keep the peace ie shelling of Georgia and then failed to prevent the seperatist from committing bad acts after repelling Georgian forces.

                  Everything else it pretty convoluted. Although I did find the stuff about how Russia was violating international laws with passports and such interesting since I never knew half of those things were laws. (btw that not russian bashing there I just found all the rules and justisfications interesting.)

                  I also think they did a decent job of trying to raise the bar for charges of genocide which I see thrown around way to much.


                  Once again thanks Erikki

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by craven View Post
                    I agree about the independent research.
                    The things I got from this is the Russians fail to keep the peace ie shelling of Georgia and then failed to prevent the seperatist from committing bad acts after repelling Georgian forces.

                    Everything else it pretty convoluted. Although I did find the stuff about how Russia was violating international laws with passports and such interesting since I never knew half of those things were laws. (btw that not russian bashing there I just found all the rules and justisfications interesting.)

                    I also think they did a decent job of trying to raise the bar for charges of genocide which I see thrown around way to much.


                    Once again thanks Erikki
                    From your post it looks like you were specifically looking for evidence against Russia. "Whoever looks for something, will always find something" as a Russian proverb goes.

                    For example, the shelling was certainly two-way (S.O -> G and G -> S.O.). How was the joint (mind you) peacekeeping force stationed in S.O. meant to prevent shelling from G.?

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                    • #11
                      No most of the stuff against Russia I just wrote off to nit picking I did not see a lot of stuff against Georgia in the Report that can not be considered nit picking.

                      The shelling as I understand came mainly from the Ossetians with replies from Georgia. So if Russia would of stoped the shelling from the Ossetian then Georgia would not shelled Ossetia. That my understanding of situation. In general I think the Russian peace keepers should not of been there and Russia allowed Georgia to deal with a internal issue as it saw fit as Russia did in Chechnya.


                      The failure of the Russian army to try and protect all civilians no matter there back ground was a major failure on their part after invading. If they did protect ethinic Georgians I did not see it in the report.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by craven View Post
                        if Russia would of stoped the shelling from the Ossetian then Georgia would not shelled Ossetia
                        - and you think the Ossetians would have stopped there shelling if told to ?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by stalin View Post
                          - and you think the Ossetians would have stopped there shelling if told to ?

                          I thought that was the job of the peace keeper to prevent violence. So tell them or jail and hand them over to the courts.
                          Last edited by GCoyote; 20 Oct 09, 00:16. Reason: fixed quote tags

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by craven View Post

                            I thought that was the job of the peace keeper to prevent violence. So tell them or jail and hand them over to the courts.
                            Hmm what was the Georgian part of the Peace keepers doing?
                            Strangely I haven´t heard to much about them, maybe I just didn´t listen well enough. And honestly... I haven´t read the entire report yet, is there any comments made by them in there?
                            “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

                            Max Sterner

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by craven View Post
                              tell them or jail and hand them over to the courts
                              - they undoubtedly would do so, had the Georgians not attacked in return.

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