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Thoughts on over-all Russian Performance

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Emil_G View Post
    Long? Not too long...1999. I agree on conscription, it is very bad, and creates many problems in the Russian army. However, they can't just cut it out immediately, they lowered the time to 1 year (from 2), but there is no serious legislation to completely get rid of conscription afaik.
    Ah, yes, you are correct, of course, Emil. I forgot the more recent conflict. I was thinking back to Afghanistan.
    "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!"

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Emil_G View Post
      Yes very true, the magnitude of the Russian victory is more due to the badness of the Geogian army, however it is also a testament to the fighting spirit of the Russian army to be able to succeed in spite of these shortcomings.
      I agree with this.
      Once the elite Russian paratrooper units made it there the Georgians got in a hurry. They was better equiped then the Regular 54th army.
      Still the soldiers of the RF preformed very good whit what they had, it was hordes of tanks the Geoegians faced but it was approximtley equal with a little moore to the Russians.
      The Russian tanks was older models like T-72 and T-62, The Georgians had improved T-72 and T-55.
      Russia lost, to my best sources 3 tanks, two of them was T-72.
      Georgia lost most of it´s tanks and many was captured by the Russian army togheter with a lot of other military equipment and weapons.

      On potential interesting thing is with the Georgian AA system "Buk" , (SA-11 if I remember correctly).
      It is a very complex system that reaquares higher military education, I hear that it is somewhat unlikely that the Georgians have had time train people to that degree that these systems could have been operated in the way their ware, which have driven some to believe that they ware operated by Ukrainian crews.
      It was Ukraine that sold this equipment to Georgia in the begining.
      But it is just speculations.


      On the drafting:
      http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/31224
      Moore analyses.
      http://www.mnweekly.ru/comment/20080911/55345897.html
      http://forum.warfare.ru/special/
      “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

      Max Sterner

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Erkki View Post
        I agree with this.
        Once the elite Russian paratrooper units made it there the Georgians got in a hurry. They was better equiped then the Regular 54th army.
        Still the soldiers of the RF preformed very good whit what they had, it was hordes of tanks the Geoegians faced but it was approximtley equal with a little moore to the Russians.
        The Russian tanks was older models like T-72 and T-62, The Georgians had improved T-72 and T-55.
        Russia lost, to my best sources 3 tanks, two of them was T-72.
        Georgia lost most of it´s tanks and many was captured by the Russian army togheter with a lot of other military equipment and weapons.

        On potential interesting thing is with the Georgian AA system "Buk" , (SA-11 if I remember correctly).
        It is a very complex system that reaquares higher military education, I hear that it is somewhat unlikely that the Georgians have had time train people to that degree that these systems could have been operated in the way their ware, which have driven some to believe that they ware operated by Ukrainian crews.
        It was Ukraine that sold this equipment to Georgia in the begining.
        But it is just speculations.


        On the drafting:
        http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/31224
        Moore analyses.
        http://www.mnweekly.ru/comment/20080911/55345897.html
        http://forum.warfare.ru/special/
        It is so only based on Russian sources. In fact there were no serious land engagements between Georgians and Russians at all. Georgian troops in the South Osetia were ordered to withdraw for the defence of Tbilisi as soon as Russian troops started to approach Georgian border to invade Georgia from other directions. Of course, the retreat in that mountinous type of terrain with absolute Russian control over the air could not be accomplished successfully. Georgians had to leave all the tanks, heavy armaments, ammunitions etc. Nevertheless none of their significant units were encircled and captured or wiped out.


        The problem with Georgians that they were absolutely unprepared for the full-scale invasion from different directions and evidently supposeed that the hostilities would be restricted to the territory of the South Osetia.
        Last edited by Shamil; 12 Oct 08, 04:43.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Shamil View Post
          It is so only based on Russian sources.
          In fact there were no serious land engagements at all.
          It was, Russian peacekeeping units defending themselves ageist Georgian Troops.

          Georgian troops in the South Osetia were ordered to withdraw for the defence of Tbilisi as soon as Russian troops started to approach Georgian border to invade Georgia from other directions.
          Source please'

          Of course, the retreat in that Ossetian type of terrain with absolute Russian control over the air could not be accomplished successfully. Georgians had to leave all the tanks, heavy armaments, ammunitions etc. Nevertheless none of their significant units were encircled and captured or wiped out.
          And? If he Russian army had not stoped all of them would have been, a army without weapons are a bunch of POW waiting to be captured.
          “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

          Max Sterner

          Comment


          • #20
            I still think the Georgians walked straight into a "sucker punch" -- they did exactly what Russia wanted them to do and had prepared, well in advance, for Russia to counter.

            It is difficult to imagine such a multi faceted and prompt response under any other circumstances.
            I like Dogs far better than most People

            As our Supply Sargent once said "If'n you only got one - order one - If'n you got Two - turn one in !! (???)

            BoRG

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Kaiser Franz View Post
              I still think the Georgians walked straight into a "sucker punch" -- they did exactly what Russia wanted them to do and had prepared, well in advance, for Russia to counter.

              It is difficult to imagine such a multi faceted and prompt response under any other circumstances.
              Have you heard about the 54th army commander?
              Why wasn´t the elite tanks division there and the VDV?
              Why was it necesary to relocate Spetsnaz units? it doesn´t cause to much attention to move them around and have them ready.
              “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

              Max Sterner

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Erkki View Post
                Have you heard about the 54th army commander?
                Why wasn´t the elite tanks division there and the VDV?
                Why was it necesary to relocate Spetsnaz units? it doesn´t cause to much attention to move them around and have them ready.
                Are you asking about the 58th Army ?
                I like Dogs far better than most People

                As our Supply Sargent once said "If'n you only got one - order one - If'n you got Two - turn one in !! (???)

                BoRG

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Kaiser Franz View Post
                  Are you asking about the 58th Army ?
                  Ah damn! I hate numbers! I must be mixing it with T-54!
                  But you get my point anyway?
                  “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

                  Max Sterner

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Erkki View Post
                    Ah damn! I hate numbers! I must be mixing it with T-54!
                    But you get my point anyway?
                    Yep

                    The 58th had been on manuvers in the region since July - they were well prepared for the action. It may be that the Gerogian initiative was larger and more forceful than Russia anticipated in their pre-planing - don't have a clue. I do know that Russian "eyes on the ground" was weak but -- their response was well coordinated and rapid.

                    That just doesn't happen as quickly, without considerable advanced planing, as the Russians made it happen -- there is only one conclusion to draw -- sitting here on the sidelines.

                    A sohisticated battle plan had been prepared and they executed it well - with, ofcourse, some drawbacks -- equipment failure - communications breakdowns -- all the things you would expect in the "fog of war" .
                    I like Dogs far better than most People

                    As our Supply Sargent once said "If'n you only got one - order one - If'n you got Two - turn one in !! (???)

                    BoRG

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Kaiser Franz View Post
                      Yep

                      The 58th had been on manuvers in the region since July - they were well prepared for the action. It may be that the Gerogian initiative was larger and more forceful than Russia anticipated in their pre-planing - don't have a clue. I do know that Russian "eyes on the ground" was weak but -- their response was well coordinated and rapid.
                      I wouldn´t calling rushing in 1-2 tanks and some BMP with infantry and the Commander of the 58th army , that isn´t really like sending in the entire 58th.
                      The army was still getting their tanks ready when the commander roled away with his force to try and reveal the Peacekeepres.
                      The effecct on the Georgian army was a other, they thought they faced at least the entire 58th army, in the battles the Commander was wounded in the battle, he is considered a hero for his initative.

                      That just doesn't happen as quickly, without considerable advanced planing, as the Russians made it happen -- there is only one conclusion to draw -- sitting here on the sidelines.
                      How long would it take for the US to make a similiar thing if Canada invaded?
                      A sohisticated battle plan had been prepared and they executed it well - with, ofcourse, some drawbacks -- equipment failure - communications breakdowns -- all the things you would expect in the "fog of war" .
                      All countries have those, I even believe Sweden has on invading Finland.
                      “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

                      Max Sterner

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Erkki View Post
                        It was, Russian peacekeeping units defending themselves ageist Georgian Troops.
                        Russian "peace-keepers" had sided with Moscow's creature South Osetian regime long before the escalation and thus ceased to be any peace-keepers and turned into the occupants of the internarionally recognized part of Georgian territory.

                        I repeat there were no serious land warfare. In 1993 paramilitary Georgians units in Abkhazia without central command held out against superior regular Russian troops that were supported by Abhazians for months.

                        And? If he Russian army had not stoped all of them would have been, a army without weapons are a bunch of POW waiting to be captured.
                        Yeah, it is what Russian generals thought would happen when they sent their troops to Chechnya in the early 1990s.
                        Last edited by Shamil; 12 Oct 08, 05:51.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Shamil View Post
                          Russian "peace-keepers" had sided with Moscow's creature South Osetian regime long before the escalation and thus ceased to be any peace-keepers and turned into the occupants of the internarionally recognized part of Georgian territory.
                          Don´t start with that again, that is offtopic here don´t try your usual tricks or we end up arguing the space race too!
                          We are disscussing the prefomance of the army here, not who did what right or wrong.

                          Yeah, it is what Russian generals thought would happen when they sent their troops to Chechnya in the early 1990s.
                          I will not discuss Chechnya here.
                          Last edited by Erkki; 12 Oct 08, 05:53.
                          “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

                          Max Sterner

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            And that is still off-topic, don´t try your usual tricks or we end up arguing the space race too!
                            It is much to the topic.

                            I will not discuss Chechnya here.
                            the situation would have been the same if the RF troops hadn't stopped.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Shamil View Post
                              It is much to the topic.
                              It is not, since we are disscussing the armys preformance, go argue politics somewhere else.
                              “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

                              Max Sterner

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Shamil View Post
                                the situation would have been the same if the RF troops hadn't stopped.
                                That is a what if scenario.
                                “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

                                Max Sterner

                                Comment

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