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  • Hate to be the conspiracy theorist.......

    But the Polish President's death along with many prominent figures in the nation's military, intelligence, and political establishment all in one instant seems more then a little suspicious to me. Along with Putin's insistence of personally taking charge of the investigation into the crash and the overall opaqueness of things thus far despite it being early into the investigation All seems more than a little suspicious to me. Despite the fact of pilot error being put forth by the Russian's along with the age of the aircraft ,which seemed to be by report's in otherwise good shape. I think foul play can't be ruled out, especially considering Poland's shaky relations with Russia and it's political establishment along with the ruling Russian political establishment's recent history of dealing with both domestic and international opponent's and leader's it hasn't gotten along with.

    Also why hasn't foul play in this plane crash been brought upon the media or by analyst's and pundit's so far?

  • #2
    - because this is one of a few cases where no 'foul play' was involved; for here the pilots are to blame for what happened.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Kevin23
      Hate to be the conspiracy theorist......
      So don't!

      In the absence of any evidence of foul play at this point, speculation is just plain worthless & entirely non-productive!


      Last edited by Admiral; 10 Apr 10, 22:39.
      On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

      ACG History Today

      BoRG

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Kevin23 View Post
        But the Polish President's death along with many prominent figures in the nation's military, intelligence, and political establishment all in one instant seems more then a little suspicious to me. Along with Putin's insistence of personally taking charge of the investigation into the crash and the overall opaqueness of things thus far despite it being early into the investigation All seems more than a little suspicious to me. Despite the fact of pilot error being put forth by the Russian's along with the age of the aircraft ,which seemed to be by report's in otherwise good shape. I think foul play can't be ruled out, especially considering Poland's shaky relations with Russia and it's political establishment along with the ruling Russian political establishment's recent history of dealing with both domestic and international opponent's and leader's it hasn't gotten along with.

        Also why hasn't foul play in this plane crash been brought upon the media or by analyst's and pundit's so far?
        Because there is no reason to start looking for conspiracies yet. The available facts make an accident pretty plausible.
        1. The weather was crap. US planes have crashed in those conditions despite our much better aviation safety systems.
        2. The Poles were enroute to a major PR shindig that would have looked good for the Russians. The Russians put a good deal of effort into this as a way to improve relations with Poland. Not the sort of party they would like to see cancel.
        3. Losing that many foreign dignitaries in Russian controlled airspace looks really bad.
        4. Putin was going to be the face of Russian public diplomacy for this event. He's got to be seriously peeved that all this went down on his turf.
        Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

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        • #5
          If the Polish authorities are granted full access to anything they want to see, in and around the crash site, then I will be happy.
          Otherwise.... not so much.

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          • #6
            http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7094338.ece

            “At a distance of 2.5km [1.5 miles] the head of air traffic control ascertained that the crew had increased the speed of the descent,” said Alexander Alyoshin, of the Russian air force.

            “The head of the air traffic control group gave a command to the crew to put the aircraft into the horizontal position and when the crew did not implement this order, several times gave orders to divert to an alternative airport.

            “Despite this, the crew continued the descent. Unfortunately this ended in tragedy.”

            Russia Today and other television stations reported that even before the first attempt to land, the pilot had been dumping fuel — indicating some form of mechanical problem — so by the fourth attempt there was no alternative but to put the aircraft down.

            ...

            Two “black boxes” — the plane’s cockpit flight recorders — were recovered from the wreckage. According to Russian investigators, a preliminary check confirmed that the pilot had defied the control tower. The recorders may hold the answer as to why.

            Kaczynski, whose body was also said to have been found, was a former anti-communist campaigner with a penchant for taunting the Kremlin. He had every reason to believe he was not welcome in Russia. Polish observers said he may have interpreted an order to divert to Moscow as an attempt to sabotage his big day in Katyn, where he was due to attend a mass and give a speech.

            Russian media reports said he had once become angry with a pilot who refused to land in Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, on the grounds that it was unsafe. The same thing may have happened at Smolensk, aviation experts claimed. They suggested he may have pressed the pilot to make at least two attempts to land.

            The crew included Captain Arkadiusz Protasiuk, Major Robert Grzywna, the first officer, Artur Zietek, the navigator lieutenant, and Andrzej Michalak, the engineer. All were said to have been very experienced.
            So Kaczynski has already had such incidents in the past - according to some reports he strongly chided his pilot who refused to land in Tbilisi in 2008 because of bad weather conditions and followed the controllers' advice to land in neighbouring Azerbaijan. By some uncofirmed reports, the pilot was fired shortly after that. It feels like the Polish president's love of dramatic appearances at any cost, coupled with his distrust of everything Russian which was reaching absurd levels, did him a huge disservice.

            How very sad. RIP.
            www.histours.ru

            Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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            • #7
              I too hate to be the conspiracy theorist, but (no one ever says "I hate to be A" when hes not going to do A a splitsecond after... )

              http://www.infowars.com/polands-lead...n-plane-crash/

              There’s no telling if the two events are connected, but their timing is mighty interesting.

              The Polish government and the National Bank of Poland, in a “rare moment of unity,” agree to weaken Poland’s currency, the zloty, in an act that would benefit Poland’s exporters at the expense of Poland’s trading partners—that is, the European Union, among others. Then, the next day, Poland’s president and the president of its national bank die in a plane crash.
              So it was the EU. Russia is the lazy, unimagenative conspiracy theory. When theres not the Rothschilds or Iluminaty involved at least get something that not a ten year old nationalist can come up with...
              Last edited by Kimi; 11 Apr 10, 10:10.
              Ha, wie so stolz und hehr
              Wirft über Land und Meer
              Weithin der deutsche Aar
              Flammenden Blick.

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              • #8
                This is all just crap!

                If one truly hates to be, then cease or don't!

                Nobody alive or dead created the weather in Smolensk!

                The entire decision that led to this crash was within the Pilots hands to make - regardless of any culpability that may or may not have resulted in the final decision to make multiple attempts to land!

                These Are Immutable Facts!

                Blame may eventually affix itself to the chain of events, but Conspiracy could not be further from any realm of possibility - PERIOD!

                This is a community inhabited by citizens from around our World...

                With or Without Facts...

                We'll not be encouraging, sanctioning, inciting, fomenting or allowing any manner of Trollish inflammation in regard to this tragedy!

                Learn It & Live It!

                Admiral
                On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

                ACG History Today

                BoRG

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kimi View Post
                  I too hate to be the conspiracy theorist, but (no one ever says "I hate to be A" when hes not going to do A a splitsecond after... )

                  http://www.infowars.com/polands-lead...n-plane-crash/



                  So it was the EU. Russia is the lazy, unimagenative conspiracy theory. When theres not the Rothschilds or Iluminaty involved at least get something that not a ten year old nationalist can come up with...
                  I was sure Alex Jones would be all over this ASAP. What a nut.
                  Кто там?
                  Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
                  Tunis is a Carthigenian city!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7094338.ece



                    So Kaczynski has already had such incidents in the past - according to some reports he strongly chided his pilot who refused to land in Tbilisi in 2008 because of bad weather conditions and followed the controllers' advice to land in neighbouring Azerbaijan. By some uncofirmed reports, the pilot was fired shortly after that. It feels like the Polish president's love of dramatic appearances at any cost, coupled with his distrust of everything Russian which was reaching absurd levels, did him a huge disservice.

                    How very sad. RIP.
                    Manipulation.

                    In article you have linked there is nothing about bad weather but about:
                    Russian media reports said he had once become angry with a pilot who refused to land in Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, on the grounds that it was unsafe.
                    It was during Russian agression on Georgia, and Kacynsky with others Presidents want to reach Tblisi as soon as it is posible, to show solidarity with Georgians and demonstrate unity against Russian invasion.

                    In August 2008 the pilot Kaczynski refused to put the liner in the Georgian capital Tbilisi, as requested by the president.On board the ship that day were heads of Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Ukraine, sent on a visit to Georgia. Kaczynski wanted to jet flew "directly in Tbilisi, to be as soon as possible to meet with President Mikheil Saakashvili. Despite the fact that the pilot was in the hands of the flight route of the presidential plane, a predetermined Kaczynski's office and is not intended to land in Tbilisi, Mr Kaczynski demanded that the pilot landed at the airport. However, he did not risk the lives of VIP-passengers in a complex political situation and the lack of diplomatic arrangements to fly to Tbilisi. The plane landed near the capital of Azerbaijan in the city of Ganja, and senior passengers traveled to Tbilisi by car. "We will be dismantled, at the highest level", - was indignant when Kaczynski. According to unofficial information, the pilot was dismissed.
                    http://www.gzt.ru/topnews/accidents/...onbigfromindex
                    Last edited by Orda-Osto; 12 Apr 10, 05:45.

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                    • #11


                      Kaczyński's going home.



                      The first simulation of the crash.
                      Last edited by Przemyslaw; 11 Apr 10, 14:05.
                      "[...]

                      While Brittania's Huns with their long-range guns
                      Sailed in through the foggy dew.


                      [...]"

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Orda-Osto View Post
                        Manipulation.

                        In article you have linked there is nothing about bad weather but about: It was during Russian agression on Georgia, and Kacynsky with others Presidents want to reach Tblisi as soon as it is posible, to show solidarity with Georgians and demonstrate unity against Russian invasion.
                        Quit pushing your paranoia into every Russia-Poland connected news

                        This is where I took it - http://glavcom.ua/articles/491.html, and anyway the word "unsafe" doesn't mean "because of military actions". This is merely your interpretation. Not speaking of the fact the Russian army didn't bomb Tbilisi or intercept/shoot down civilian aircraft.

                        В августе 2008 года пилот Качиньского якобы из-за сложных метеоусловий отказался сажать лайнер в столице Грузии Тбилиси, несмотря на настойчивые требования польского лидера, пишет «Российская газета». Самолет приземлился недалеко от столицы Азербайджана в городе Гянджа. «Мы обязательно разберемся. Причем на самом высоком уровне», — возмущался польский президент Лех Качиньский.
                        In August 2008 Kaczynski's pilot refused to land his jet in Georgia's capital Tbilisi allegedly because of difficult weather conditions, despite Polish leader's persistent demands, reported "Rossiyskaya gazeta". The plane landed in Gyandge, not far from Azerbaijan's capital. "We'll definitely sort it out, and at the highest level", grumbled the Polish president Lech Kaczynski.
                        www.histours.ru

                        Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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                        • #13
                          I just want to add that after Tibilisi thing sveral senior pilots resigned and transfered to private sector... The new pilots could be very much under the impression that if they won't do what president expects from them to do - they can start seeking for new jobs.
                          "[...]

                          While Brittania's Huns with their long-range guns
                          Sailed in through the foggy dew.


                          [...]"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Unfortunately this tragic event was not the first one.

                            http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2...nt_6418746.htm
                            “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

                            Max Sterner

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Orda-Osto View Post
                              Manipulation.
                              Careful throwing such words around, manipulation/brainwashing/mind control is a delicate matter that should be carefully discussed, preferably by individuals with great knowledge in psychology.



                              It was during Russian agression on Georgia
                              Two "g" in aggression

                              Feel free to go ahead and live in that illusion if you so wish

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                              “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

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