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Evidence of Stalin-era Mass Murders

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  • #46
    Sorry for a large quote, but is is worth it:

    In the early 90s I spent much time dealing with statistics of the Soviet terror. I studied a huge number of reporting sheets from various years and various regions of the Soviet Union. Our statistics began in earnest from 1921, only fragmentary information left from the period before 1921. But begging from the year 1921 there are huge files with reports. By 1994 I have studied them all, and calculated all the sums. What was left was to publish them. But I looked at those number and...

    There are people around me whose opinion is important to me: there is a traditional intellectual public opinion, and, most importantly, the opinion of former political prisoners many of whom who were still alive in 1994. And they estimated our victims in the entire history of terror with some completely unbelievable figures - tens of millions.

    But according to my calculations in the entire history of Soviet power, from 1918 to 1987 (the last arrests were at the beginning of 1987), according to the surviving documents, it turned out that 7 million 100 thousand people were arrested by the security forces throughout the country. At the same time, some of them were not arrested for political crimes. And quite many. Yes, they were arrested by the security organs, but there were years when the security organs were arresting people for banditism, smuggling, and counterfeiting. And many other "ordinary" crimes.

    All these numbers are recorded in folders with documents. Annual reports of the security agencies says: those under investigation - that much, including those with arrested, including those without arrest. Then begins the table of the movement of those arrested. Completed investigative cases - that much, including, transferred to the special session - that much, transferred to the courts and tribunals - that much. To non-judicial bodies - that much. Fled, died - all stats are available. There were very few escapes, by the way.

    And here is the final figure - 7 million. Through the entire history of the Soviet regime. What should I do with it? But public opinion says that almost 12 million of those arrested in our country are in 19371939 alone. And I belong to this society, I live with these people, I am part of them. Not a part of the Soviet government, not the Russian democracy, but these people. I just knew that, first, they would not believe me. And, secondly, for the circle to which I consider myself belonging, it would mean that everything that these respected people have told us about the numbers until now was not true.

    And I decided to set aside my work for the time being.
    That's from a Russian historian Arseniy Rogisnkiy:
    http://old.memo.ru/d/124360.html
    This interview caused quite a boom several years ago.

    Ultimately that gross inflation of Stalinist terror did a disservice to Russian liberals. First of all, numbers extracted from documents didn't look that bad by comparison. Usually people would see 800 000 executions as horrific. But if they were first told that there were 8 millions of them, 800 000 would look like a small number. Then, liberals attacked the Soviet regime for lies and manipulation, but it turned out that they were not completely honest themselves.

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    • #47
      Obviously it's not just the numbers but the down stream effect. The purge of the officer corp being one example?
      We hunt the hunters

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      • #48
        Stalin murdered, one way or another, millions of his own people. There is no way to avoid the "downstream effect", particularly noticable during Barbarossa when the lack of experienced leadership resulted in heavy losses for Soviet forces. But the truth is that every single death in wartime is the loss of a valuable resource that often cannot easily be replaced, be it a general, a private, a worker in a factory or a simple farmer.

        The Soviet tactics of war resulted in vastly more casualties than were necessary at every step.
        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          Stalin murdered, one way or another, millions of his own people.
          Eh no, not "millions". See the part about vastly exaggerated Cold War numbers again.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Stalin murdered, one way or another, millions of his own people. There is no way to avoid the "downstream effect", particularly noticable during Barbarossa when the lack of experienced leadership resulted in heavy losses for Soviet forces. But the truth is that every single death in wartime is the loss of a valuable resource that often cannot easily be replaced, be it a general, a private, a worker in a factory or a simple farmer.

            The Soviet tactics of war resulted in vastly more casualties than were necessary at every step.
            You should read more about the subject. Soviets didn't had the luxury of being behind a large body of water like US and Britain did. Who still suffered defeats in early battles. And even late ones.
            There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Emtos View Post

              You should read more about the subject. Soviets didn't had the luxury of being behind a large body of water like US and Britain did. Who still suffered defeats in early battles. And even late ones.
              Your assumption that I haven't read the history is incorrect.

              Tactics have nothing to do with "being behind large bodies of water.". The Germans weren't, and they were masterful tacticians and far better trained troops. Stalin needlessly sacrificed men without concern, and that leads to increased casualties. Same as the practice of machine-gunning troops who fail to advance into murderous fire.

              The Allies invaded Europe and fought on the ground in Europe, same as the Soviet military, and sustained far less casualties because they fought with greater concern for the survival of their men. Stalin didn't care because he could always conscript more ignorant peasants, and throw in more penal battalions.

              I seriously doubt the Soviet armies could have survived against the Japanese in the Pacific Theater, where America took her greatest casualties using pretty much the same tactics the Soviets used. The Allies fought smarter and made far better use of the technology at their disposal, a lot of which they gave away to Russia to help her. But technology is wasted if it isn't used properly and is needlessly squandered.

              The mark of good tactics and good leaders is as much resource management as it is about shots fired.
              Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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              • #52
                I think the main point here is that people are not starving in Venezuela because of war but bad policy. Counting the number of dead at the hands of Stalin requires more than just counting political prisoners. An honest accounting has to take many consequences of policy into account.

                No country is innocent of atrocities certainly slavery and policies towards Natives caused many unnecessary death in the U.S. In the end the numbers really do not matter that much. It's the point of history to not make the same mistakes over and over. One of those mistakes is apparently socialism. It doesn't matter what your intentions are if you keep getting negative results.
                We hunt the hunters

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Same as the practice of machine-gunning troops who fail to advance into murderous fire.
                  Any factual example of this "practice"? Where, when, who?
                  The Allies invaded Europe and fought on the ground in Europe, same as the Soviet military, and sustained far less casualties
                  They did it because
                  1) The bulk of German ground forces were pinned down on the Eastern front and blooded white there
                  2) Allies were hugely superior in material to Sov. Army
                  3) Allies had ample time to train and build their units, which the Soviet Army didn't
                  All were an objective factors which didn't have anything to do with Stalin.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
                    Any factual example of this "practice"? Where, when, who?

                    They did it because
                    1) The bulk of German ground forces were pinned down on the Eastern front and blooded white there
                    2) Allies were hugely superior in material to Sov. Army
                    3) Allies had ample time to train and build their units, which the Soviet Army didn't
                    All were an objective factors which didn't have anything to do with Stalin.
                    You completely missed the point.
                    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                    • #55
                      No, I guess, I've got it. Again, Allies (or more exactly USA) possessed a far superior economical resources to the Soviet Union and operated in far more comfortable conditions. Like you it or not, these are simple and obvious facts. Hence, you compare apples to oranges.

                      I'm still waiting for concrete examples of "practice". Care to provide some?

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        Your assumption that I haven't read the history is incorrect.

                        Tactics have nothing to do with "being behind large bodies of water.". The Germans weren't, and they were masterful tacticians and far better trained troops. Stalin needlessly sacrificed men without concern, and that leads to increased casualties. Same as the practice of machine-gunning troops who fail to advance into murderous fire.

                        The Allies invaded Europe and fought on the ground in Europe, same as the Soviet military, and sustained far less casualties because they fought with greater concern for the survival of their men. Stalin didn't care because he could always conscript more ignorant peasants, and throw in more penal battalions.

                        I seriously doubt the Soviet armies could have survived against the Japanese in the Pacific Theater, where America took her greatest casualties using pretty much the same tactics the Soviets used. The Allies fought smarter and made far better use of the technology at their disposal, a lot of which they gave away to Russia to help her. But technology is wasted if it isn't used properly and is needlessly squandered.

                        The mark of good tactics and good leaders is as much resource management as it is about shots fired.
                        Tactics had all to do with being behind a large body of water. USSR didn't had the luxury to train troops for two years before sending them to the battle. Nor it had the luxury to have the largest industry in the world without risk of being bombed and with plenty of qualified workers. Even then Allies faced only a tiny portion of German forces.

                        Soviet would probably fare much better against the Japanese than US did. They demonstrated it in the battles against the Japanese. Btw US lost much more in Europe than in Pacific. You should try to learn at least YOUR history.
                        There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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                        • #57
                          Structural problems within the societies that adopted socialism should not be ignored. Was the Tsar's army any less "efficient" than Stalin's? Was Mao more murderous than the warlords who ran China before him? Whatever the answers are it is clear that the improvements were minimal compared to social development else where. Some sort of comparative analysis based on empirical data has to be possible if a productive conversation is to be had.
                          We hunt the hunters

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                            Structural problems within the societies that adopted socialism should not be ignored. Was the Tsar's army any less "efficient" than Stalin's?
                            It was.


                            There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Emtos View Post

                              Tactics had all to do with being behind a large body of water. USSR didn't had the luxury to train troops for two years before sending them to the battle. Nor it had the luxury to have the largest industry in the world without risk of being bombed and with plenty of qualified workers. Even then Allies faced only a tiny portion of German forces.

                              Soviet would probably fare much better against the Japanese than US did. They demonstrated it in the battles against the Japanese. Btw US lost much more in Europe than in Pacific. You should try to learn at least YOUR history.
                              The Soviets didn't declare war on japan until the end of WWII when Japan lay in ruins and almost totally defeated.
                              I suggest you study the casualty figures very closely before making anymore comments on casualties in different theaters. Or ask the Marines.

                              And ask far as the luxury of distance, yes, it did. Study a map, would you? The Soviets withdrew their manufacturing beyond the Urals and out of range of German bombers. The only nation able to bomb long range successfully was America, and they often had to utilize "shuttle" missions which took of in Allied territory, bombed a distant target, landed on Soviet airfields, refueled and flew back to Allied bases.

                              The Americans, while recovering from Pearl Harbor which did not happen to the Soviets, were supplying the entire Allied forces with Lend Lease, including tanks, munitions, fuel, food and critical war items. We even provided cloth for Soviet uniforms and thousands of field telephones and countless miles of wire so the Soviets could at least talk to each other.

                              The Soviet treatment of the Allied sailors and merchant marine men who often died carrying those supplies to Russia was criminal and beyond contempt.
                              Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                                The Soviets didn't declare war on japan until the end of WWII when Japan lay in ruins and almost totally defeated.
                                I suggest you study the casualty figures very closely before making anymore comments on casualties in different theaters. Or ask the Marines.
                                Still Japanese had 700 000 troops in the region in addition to a large number of fortifications.
                                For the losses you can at least study your own history.

                                http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm/compound...13coll8/id/130

                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                And ask far as the luxury of distance, yes, it did. Study a map, would you? The Soviets withdrew their manufacturing beyond the Urals and out of range of German bombers. The only nation able to bomb long range successfully was America, and they often had to utilize "shuttle" missions which took of in Allied territory, bombed a distant target, landed on Soviet airfields, refueled and flew back to Allied bases.
                                Soviets didn't withdrew all the manufaturing behind the Urals. Much was lost. Other factories were under attack and damaged. Removed factories took time to install and relaunch production. US factories didn't had to move by a centimeter nor to restart production. So it was much easier for US than for USSR.

                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                The Americans, while recovering from Pearl Harbor which did not happen to the Soviets, were supplying the entire Allied forces with Lend Lease, including tanks, munitions, fuel, food and critical war items. We even provided cloth for Soviet uniforms and thousands of field telephones and countless miles of wire so the Soviets could at least talk to each other.
                                What recovering from Pearl Harbor are you talking about ? It was a tactical defeat but certainly not a catastrophe. By comparison, Soviets lost in first two weeks of Barbarossa more men than USA during the whole WWII. Study something at least.

                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                The Soviet treatment of the Allied sailors and merchant marine men who often died carrying those supplies to Russia was criminal and beyond contempt.
                                More ignorant BS. Allied sailors get the best treatment possible durign the war. Maybe they were used to coca-cola, fried chicken and prostitutes but there was no such stuff available.
                                There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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