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  • #16
    Originally posted by Nichols View Post

    Legal immigrants do not have a right to vote in local elections. You are confusing progressive wants with rights.
    I wasn't referring to USA specifically, legal immigrants can for example vote in many European countries.

    Trying to tie in the revolutionary war doesn't help your cause. There is nothing stopping a legal immigrant from becoming a citizen....the legal immigrant by getting citizenship is declaring independence from their birth narion.
    Well, there is plenty of things stopping one from becoming a citizen (for starters, five years of permanent residence). But that wasn't the point. If there is no representation should you then be exempt from things like taxes? I am more interested in your reasoning rather than how things are.

    One of the favourite talking points of the far right is that immigrants don't assimilate or integrate, yet they often also hold these conflicting ideas that make it harder to assimilate or integrate.
    Wisdom is personal

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Karri View Post

      Why wouldn't legal immigrants be allowed to take part in elections?
      Once they become citizens there isn't anything wrong with it.
      Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Karri View Post

        I wasn't referring to USA specifically, legal immigrants can for example vote in many European countries.



        Well, there is plenty of things stopping one from becoming a citizen (for starters, five years of permanent residence). But that wasn't the point. If there is no representation should you then be exempt from things like taxes? I am more interested in your reasoning rather than how things are.

        One of the favourite talking points of the far right is that immigrants don't assimilate or integrate, yet they often also hold these conflicting ideas that make it harder to assimilate or integrate.
        What is your point about Representation? all persons living here are represented, they are just prohibited from doing what I stated in post #13, voting for someone in a schoolboard election has nothing to do with a political election, and has nothing to do with the election of a dog catcher in a town (if that was the case, which it ain't), a non Citizen can't do it!
        Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

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        • #19
          If they want to tax people that try to avoid taxes by joining organizations that facilitate bartering goods and services in place of monetary exchange it is hard to see how the same principle doesn't apply here. If you are doing free campaign labor a monetary value could reasonably be applied. The problem is that you can't selectively limit free speech.

          In the last election it looks like Italy, Britain and Australia colluded with Obama administration officials in the intelligence community to spy on the Trump campaign. Those officials used Russian disinformation to justify their corruption. Resulting in the worst case of foreign interference in a U.S. election ever. Those actions not only corrupted the political process but probably cost thousands of lives as the government was busy with a hoax impeachment instead of dealing with the pandemic.

          That people outside the U.S. have Trump Derangement Syndrome is obvious. I still don't see how you can limit their political involvement in U.S. politics without undue censorship. If the American people can't deal with Russian bots and crazy Canadians then they shouldn't be voting.
          We hunt the hunters

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          • #20
            Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
            If they want to tax people that try to avoid taxes by joining organizations that facilitate bartering goods and services in place of monetary exchange it is hard to see how the same principle doesn't apply here. If you are doing free campaign labor a monetary value could reasonably be applied. The problem is that you can't selectively limit free speech.

            In the last election it looks like Italy, Britain and Australia colluded with Obama administration officials in the intelligence community to spy on the Trump campaign. Those officials used Russian disinformation to justify their corruption. Resulting in the worst case of foreign interference in a U.S. election ever. Those actions not only corrupted the political process but probably cost thousands of lives as the government was busy with a hoax impeachment instead of dealing with the pandemic.

            That people outside the U.S. have Trump Derangement Syndrome is obvious. I still don't see how you can limit their political involvement in U.S. politics without undue censorship. If the American people can't deal with Russian bots and crazy Canadians then they shouldn't be voting.
            I think everyone outside of the US has Trump Derangement Syndrome, and they have had it long, long before Trump, why can't the US be like us, the US is the US and doesn't want to be like them, and that's the part they will never understand, and never will.
            Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
              [...]
              That people outside the U.S. have Trump Derangement Syndrome is obvious.
              Originally posted by Trung Si View Post
              I think everyone outside of the US has Trump Derangement Syndrome...
              You're probably both right

              OIP.KDJrLXZQ0gIFAbYiU2ijYgHaFj?pid=Api&rs=1.jpg
              Last edited by Snowygerry; 15 Jul 20, 23:41.
              Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

              Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by pamak View Post
                Also. a legal immigrant who gets US citizenship does not necessarily declare independence from the birth nation. There are many cases of dual citizenship.
                The naturalization oath is pretty clear:

                "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."


                Originally posted by pamak View Post
                Finally, there are cases of legal immigrants who do not have a clear path to citizenship. The type of visa they get when they enter the US as legal immigrants is important...
                The immigration status can be changed once you are in country, it doesn't matter what type of visa was issued.

                My wife and daughter (step) came over on a tourist visa, one week later we married, 11 months later they were naturalized.

                "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Karri View Post

                  I wasn't referring to USA specifically, legal immigrants can for example vote in many European countries.
                  Okay, I thought you were referring to the USA.

                  Originally posted by Karri View Post
                  Well, there is plenty of things stopping one from becoming a citizen (for starters, five years of permanent residence). But that wasn't the point. If there is no representation should you then be exempt from things like taxes? I am more interested in your reasoning rather than how things are.
                  Five years isn't written in stone, there a numerous ways to expedite naturalization.

                  If you a living or visiting a country you should be paying taxes and following the laws of that country. That doesn't give a non citizen the right to participate in elections. I lived in various countries while I was in the service, some had SOFA agreements, some didn't. Some had infrastructure that supported the US presence, some didn't. Never once did I believe that I should have the right to vote in local elections.

                  Originally posted by Karri View Post
                  One of the favourite talking points of the far right is that immigrants don't assimilate or integrate, yet they often also hold these conflicting ideas that make it harder to assimilate or integrate.
                  Not sure if this needs to be answered by me, do you consider me far right?

                  "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Nichols View Post


                    If you a living or visiting a country you should be paying taxes and following the laws of that country. That doesn't give a non citizen the right to participate in elections. I lived in various countries while I was in the service, some had SOFA agreements, some didn't. Some had infrastructure that supported the US presence, some didn't. Never once did I believe that I should have the right to vote in local elections.
                    If you're visiting you need to pay taxes on purchases, but if you're a permanent resident you pay taxes on income and everything else as well. You also pay for services. That in my opinion should give you the right to vote in local elections, things that affect everything around you. Not a hill I would die on, but it doesn't really make sense to have it the other way around.



                    Not sure if this needs to be answered by me, do you consider me far right?
                    No, poor train of thought on my part. Still, I wonder what would be the reason for not allowing permanent residents to vote in local elections. These are matters that directly affect you (something as simple as water charges). National elections are naturally an entirely different thing.
                    Wisdom is personal

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                    • #25
                      Former ambassador to Canada, Bruce Heyman, is heading up the get out the vote of American citizens living abroad for the Biden campaign. Some interesting statistics, there were 622,492 Americans living in Canada eligible to vote in the 2016 election but only 5.3% did so. I expect that some Canadians will join in Heyman's "get out the vote" initiative in Canada. Hell, I'll even call my brother in law to encourage him to vote, but I would be death to tell you guys who I'd encourage him to vote for but some people might be able to guess. There may be as many as 9 million eligible American voters living overseas.

                      https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/wa...ut-87740997771

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Karri View Post

                        I wasn't referring to USA specifically, legal immigrants can for example vote in many European countries.
                        Actually that is not correct. At least not for Germany. You are only allowed to vote if you are german citizen. On a city/county level, EU citizens, resident for more than three months, are allowed to vote, they are not allowed to vote on state or federal level though. Legal immigrants are only allowed to warch the show.

                        Concerning foreign involvement, i see no reason why this should be allowed anywhere.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Karri View Post
                          Still, I wonder what would be the reason for not allowing permanent residents to vote in local elections. These are matters that directly affect you (something as simple as water charges). National elections are naturally an entirely different thing.
                          I think the main reason for the push back on permanent residents is that there are municipalities that allow illegal immigrants to participate in local elections.

                          For permanent residents, they have a vested interests in local elections. Illegals have no interest and negate the votes of those that do.
                          "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Nichols View Post

                            The naturalization oath is pretty clear:

                            "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."




                            The immigration status can be changed once you are in country, it doesn't matter what type of visa was issued.

                            My wife and daughter (step) came over on a tourist visa, one week later we married, 11 months later they were naturalized.
                            The naturalization oath does not reflect the reality of dual citizenship during which the person is still connected (and has obligations) to his mother country.

                            https://gr.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen...y-obligations/

                            U.S. Embassy & Consulate in Greece

                            Greek males between the ages of 19 and 45 are required by Greek law to perform military service. This applies to any individual whom the Greek authorities consider to be Greek, regardless of whether the individual considers himself Greek, has a foreign citizenship and passport, or was born or lives outside of Greece.

                            I am pretty sure that other countries (not all) have similar laws. This means that if there is a general Greco-Turkish war, and a need for full mobilization, it is veryyyy possible that some Greek-Americans can be called to serve in the Greek Army or risk losing their Greek citizenship if they choose to ignore such call. The response will depend on the personal choice of a Greek-American, but I would not be surprised if in real life many will choose to answer the call because they have not really renounced allegiance and allegiance to a foreign state. We saw in other cases in the past how hyphen-Americans were actually willing to leave the US to go and fight for another country (Arab-Israeli wars).

                            The fact that something can happen does not mean that there are not obstacles in achieving it. Same with Kari's example of 5 year permanent residency.
                            Last edited by pamak; 16 Jul 20, 12:14.
                            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by DingBat View Post
                              It's not my business who the citizens of the US vote into office.
                              No it isn't but foreign opinion is something valid for voters to consider before voting even if that voter gives it no weight. Take BREXIT, European opinion must have had some weight with voters. If foreign opinion is a valid consideration for voters then it is therefore valid to express that opinion. I'm in no way suggesting a parallel but in the 1933 general election in Germany should Austrians have been barred from expressing their opinion of Hitler because it was none of their business? It was very much became their business when they got gobbled up in 1937. Foreigners expressing an opinion on a candidate is legitimate in any election, anywhere, anytime and voters are free to disregard that opinion.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Judith View Post

                                Actually that is not correct. At least not for Germany. You are only allowed to vote if you are german citizen. On a city/county level, EU citizens, resident for more than three months, are allowed to vote, they are not allowed to vote on state or federal level though. Legal immigrants are only allowed to warch the show.

                                Concerning foreign involvement, i see no reason why this should be allowed anywhere.
                                I'm strictly talking about the local level. As I said, national level is an entirely different matter.
                                Wisdom is personal

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