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  • #31
    Originally posted by Nichols View Post
    The misinformation being spread is that people know the long teem effects of this virus.
    If we already know that certain damage has long term impact and we know that the disease can cause such to occur. Would you then agree that then it is possible that 1 plus 1 actually equals 2? In other words that the disease can cause long term damage?
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

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    • #32
      Turns out that all the people worried about Trump not wearing mask should have been focused on WHO

      https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/...=1&isAllowed=y
      We hunt the hunters

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
        Wrong again. The damage has already been proven. I have no idea why you insist on this.
        Yes, you are wrong again. Prove that I am wrong, post definitive proof that it crosses the blood brain barrier.

        Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
        Again wrong. If we know that certain tissue damage will have long term impact, and the infection can cause then then we know that the infection results in long term damage without having to wait for that long term. The infection may have additional adverse effects and those we won't truly be aware of until later if even then.
        Yes, you are wrong again in context of this thread where we are discussing the children going back to school. Certain tissue damage in children can be and is usually corrected over time as the child grows up.

        We wont know the long term effects until a long time has passed, that is a medical fact, not speculation or scare tactics.
        "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
          If we already know that certain damage has long term impact
          In adults, yes, children, no.

          Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
          and we know that the disease can cause such to occur.
          what is the difference between "can cause" and 'does cause'?

          Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
          In other words that the disease can cause long term damage?
          In adults, I agree, it "can cause long term damage" but we wont know if it does cause long term damage until years worth of data has been collected.

          In children, no, I don't agree. Again, children are more resilient than adults....I think I've stated that fact at least 3 times so far.

          "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
            It is not a flu. That has already been established. And it would be appreciated if that misinformation was not spread.

            And being home does not in the digital age stop children from educated either.
            I was using flu as a comparison. To show that a very common disease can still in rare cases have significant long term effects without stopping children from being educated.
            "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Nichols View Post
              Yes, you are wrong again. Prove that I am wrong, post definitive proof that it crosses the blood brain barrier.
              https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/healt...iously-thought
              Yes, you are wrong again in context of this thread where we are discussing the children going back to school. Certain tissue damage in children can be and is usually corrected over time as the child grows up.
              Do prove that it happens with coronavirus.
              We wont know the long term effects until a long time has passed, that is a medical fact, not speculation or scare tactics.
              Wrong still. We know of the effects and if they take long term (or ever) to heal. And we know that this disease can cause them. So your argument is rather hollow unless you can provide evidence which supports your opinion. That this disease would not be able to cause long term damage. Unless you can provide that, you really have nothing at all.


              Originally posted by Nichols View Post
              In adults, yes, children, no.
              Prove that it can not affect children.
              what is the difference between "can cause" and 'does cause'?
              That it does not cause it in every infected person. That we know of.
              In adults, I agree, it "can cause long term damage" but we wont know if it does cause long term damage until years worth of data has been collected.
              Wrong. We already have knowledge of the long term damages and how they heal. And we already know that this disease can cause them. Either you have the damage or not. This is not magic, it doesn't matter where the damage came from.
              In children, no, I don't agree. Again, children are more resilient than adults....I think I've stated that fact at least 3 times so far
              Then provide the evidence that no long term damage can not occur in children because of this disease.


              Originally posted by Surrey View Post
              I was using flu as a comparison. To show that a very common disease can still in rare cases have significant long term effects without stopping children from being educated.
              Not quite the same. Flu's main effect (as long term) seems to be scarring of the lungs in cases of pneumonia. This is pretty much just starting point for the problems caused by the coronavirus. As it can damage veins, skin, lungs, heart and brains. Due to various means, apparently to some degree by its ability to cause blood clotting resulting in blood flow getting restricted.
              It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Massena View Post
                With his 'one size fits all'
                That phrase doesn't only pertain to Trump, but to our federal government in general since the beginning!
                Trying hard to be the Man, that my Dog believes I am!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                  https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/healt...iously-thought

                  Do prove that it happens with coronavirus.
                  From your article:

                  Severe Covid-19 infections are known to put patients at risk of neurological complications, but research led by University College London suggests serious problems can occur even in individuals with mild virus cases.

                  "Suggests" and you are claiming that is proof? Seriously?


                  Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post

                  Wrong still. We know of the effects and if they take long term (or ever) to heal. And we know that this disease can cause them. So your argument is rather hollow unless you can provide evidence which supports your opinion. That this disease would not be able to cause long term damage. Unless you can provide that, you really have nothing at all.
                  By the definition of 'Long Term Effect' regarding any type of disease or treatment, the only way to identify the long term effects is by observing, reporting and collecting data over a long term. This isn't an "aurgument" or an "opinion" it is medical fact.


                  Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                  Prove that it can not affect children.
                  You claimed that it has long term effects on children, by you not proving proof of long term effects on children, you are proving what I posted.

                  Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                  That it does not cause it in every infected person. That we know of.
                  ....."That we know of"..... good reply and it backs up what I have been saying about no medical proof of what the long term effects are.

                  Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                  Wrong. We already have knowledge of the long term damages and how they heal. And we already know that this disease can cause them. Either you have the damage or not. This is not magic, it doesn't matter where the damage came from.
                  Again, we don't have knowledge of the long term effects. Speculation, scare tactics....wearing a tin foil hat still wont produce facts.


                  Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                  Then provide the evidence that no long term damage can not occur in children because of this disease.
                  Evidence can only be provided after decades of data are collected and studied.

                  Again, children are more resilient than adults, look at childhood cancer if you want to get an idea of how children survive while adults dont.

                  "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Nichols View Post
                    "Suggests" and you are claiming that is proof? Seriously?
                    Feel free to try to disprove it.
                    By the definition of 'Long Term Effect' regarding any type of disease or treatment, the only way to identify the long term effects is by observing, reporting and collecting data over a long term. This isn't an "aurgument" or an "opinion" it is medical fact.
                    And if we already know certain things to be of 'long term effect' it and we know this disease can cause them we also know that the disease can cause long term effects. Also a fact. Though it seems to be one which you do not like.
                    You claimed that it has long term effects on children, by you not proving proof of long term effects on children, you are proving what I posted.
                    Wrong. I said the disease may cause long term effects. You insisted on separating on 'children' and 'adults'. So it is up to you to prove that those long term effects won't affect children. Don't try to weasel away from your burden of proof.
                    ....."That we know of"..... good reply and it backs up what I have been saying about no medical proof of what the long term effects are.
                    Because it may cause even more than that. So we can not limit it just to the things we are already aware of.
                    Again, we don't have knowledge of the long term effects. Speculation, scare tactics....wearing a tin foil hat still wont produce facts.
                    We do. As discussed previously. You clearly dislike this but it doesn't matter.
                    Evidence can only be provided after decades of data are collected and studied.

                    Again, children are more resilient than adults, look at childhood cancer if you want to get an idea of how children survive while adults dont.
                    If it is such why do you insist that the children would not be affected? We already know it can cause long term effects. You are the one insisting that it can not do so in children. That is on you to prove. Also, this is not a cancer.
                    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                      Feel free to try to disprove it.
                      Using the term "suggests" proves it isn't a fact.

                      Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                      And if we already know certain things to be of 'long term effect' it and we know this disease can cause them we also know that the disease can cause long term effects. Also a fact. Though it seems to be one which you do not like.
                      How does the medical field collect long term effects?

                      Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                      Wrong. I said the disease may cause long term effects. You insisted on separating on 'children' and 'adults'. So it is up to you to prove that those long term effects won't affect children. Don't try to weasel away from your burden of proof.
                      Wrong again, I have been saying that we don't know the long term effects, we won't until the data is collect over time. I separate children and adults because children are more resilient than adults, that is a fact.

                      There is nothing for me to prove, you have failed to give anything that backs up your claim of long term effect.

                      Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                      Because it may cause even more than that. So we can not limit it just to the things we are already aware of.
                      And it may cause even less than that, until the data is collected over a long time period we won't know. Do you recommend cancelling school completely until all of the data is collected 20-30 years from now?

                      Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                      We do. As discussed previously. You clearly dislike this but it doesn't matter.
                      You keep on saying that we have knowledge of long term effects but the only information that you provide is speculation, nothing based on facts.

                      Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                      If it is such why do you insist that the children would not be affected?
                      Where did I insist that children would not be affected?

                      Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                      We already know it can cause long term effects.
                      You can keep saying that but it wont change the fact that the medical field does not know the long term effects.


                      Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                      You are the one insisting that it can not do so in children. That is on you to prove.
                      Again, where did i insist that children would not be affected?

                      Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                      Also, this is not a cancer.
                      As I said, if you want to get an idea of how children survive what adults don't study childhood cancer. Also if you want to understand what long term effects are and how they gather that data.....childhood cancer is a good place to start.
                      "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Nichols View Post
                        Using the term "suggests" proves it isn't a fact.
                        https://thehill.com/changing-america...-be-as-mild-as
                        https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-br...age/a-54111054
                        https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2020/jul/...inked-covid-19
                        https://www.advisory.com/daily-brief...health-effects
                        https://www.vox.com/2020/5/8/2125189...fects-symptoms
                        Etc... But i doubt it matters. You will just keep moving the goalposts.
                        Wrong again, I have been saying that we don't know the long term effects, we won't until the data is collect over time. I separate children and adults because children are more resilient than adults, that is a fact.
                        Do provide the evidence that the 'resilience' is also true with regards to the long term effects of the coronavirus.
                        There is nothing for me to prove, you have failed to give anything that backs up your claim of long term effect.
                        Yes there is. You repeatedly insist on the difference between children and adults. And then without any shred of evidence claim that long term effects would behave the same. That is for you to prove.
                        And it may cause even less than that, until the data is collected over a long time period we won't know. Do you recommend cancelling school completely until all of the data is collected 20-30 years from now?
                        Did i say anything of the kind? Did i even imply anything of the kind? You are really desperate in your strawman hunt now.
                        Where did I insist that children would not be affected?
                        In that you try rather desperate find some distinction between how this disease affects children and adults. You keep repeating the same 'resilence' mantra. Yet you have not provided anything which would support your argument that the long term effects could not affect children.
                        As I said, if you want to get an idea of how children survive what adults don't study childhood cancer. Also if you want to understand what long term effects are and how they gather that data.....childhood cancer is a good place to start.
                        We are not interested in cancer. We are talking about the long term effects of the coronavirus. You have not provided anything which would give any reason to think that the children would not be susceptible to the long term effects which are already known. Yet you keep saying that it would be so. That is on you to prove.
                        It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Soooo... the White House's official stance is that 'The science should not stand in the way of this' meaning the opening of the schools... So in other words science, i.e. things based on reality, should not be considered when thinking if the schools should open or not? Is that seriously what you guys support? Really?




                          --- Just a comparison how it worked here (Finland) ---

                          Here schools did open, but not at the insane infection rates that are in the USA. At that time we had about 55 new infections per day - with fairly low positive test rate of below 0.5% (it is now below 0.1%) (meaning that it was more likely that we actually caught most of the cases). So let's say about 1 new infection per 100 000 people with positive test rates being well below 1%. Equivalent daily value for the USA as a whole would be around 3300 new infections per day.

                          Also schools didn't necessarily stay open. A positive result meant quarantining those exposed (i.e. most if not whole of the class) until all had been tested and the extent of the spread could be found and be limited. Positive case in students family would mean quarantine for the student too. No end of school celebrations. No joint events. No mixing of teachers. And grades above 9th (i.e. the upper secondary, vocational schools) stayed in remote learning. Universities (and other higher level education) stay as far as it is possible in remote learning at least until the end of the first period of the autumn semester (i.e. at least until 25th of October, could be extended) with certain exceptions (new student orientation).
                          It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                            https://thehill.com/changing-america...-be-as-mild-as
                            https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-br...age/a-54111054
                            https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2020/jul/...inked-covid-19
                            https://www.advisory.com/daily-brief...health-effects
                            https://www.vox.com/2020/5/8/2125189...fects-symptoms
                            Etc... But i doubt it matters. You will just keep moving the goalposts.

                            Do provide the evidence that the 'resilience' is also true with regards to the long term effects of the coronavirus.

                            Yes there is. You repeatedly insist on the difference between children and adults. And then without any shred of evidence claim that long term effects would behave the same. That is for you to prove.

                            Did i say anything of the kind? Did i even imply anything of the kind? You are really desperate in your strawman hunt now.

                            In that you try rather desperate find some distinction between how this disease affects children and adults. You keep repeating the same 'resilence' mantra. Yet you have not provided anything which would support your argument that the long term effects could not affect children.

                            We are not interested in cancer. We are talking about the long term effects of the coronavirus. You have not provided anything which would give any reason to think that the children would not be susceptible to the long term effects which are already known. Yet you keep saying that it would be so. That is on you to prove.
                            Lots of maybes. No numbers. No statements that the effects are common etc.No statements regarding the age profile of those who suffer from them.

                            Whereas there is a wealth of surveys out there saying that children are 1. Less likely to be infecedt than adults. 2. Will suffer less severe symptoms (if any) and will nearly never die from it.

                            There is also a wealth of information, some of which I have posted already about the damage to children caused by stopping their education for an extended period.



                            "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                              Soooo... the White House's official stance is that 'The science should not stand in the way of this' meaning the opening of the schools... So in other words science, i.e. things based on reality, should not be considered when thinking if the schools should open or not? Is that seriously what you guys support? Really?

                              "Official stance"?

                              This is another example of the liberal MSM making fake news..........and people are actually believing it.

                              Even Jake Tapper called them out:

                              Folks read the ENTIRE McEnany comment about "the science should not stand in the way" of opening schools. She's arguing that the science is on the side of those who want to open them, she cites a JAMA study. I'm not taking a position on the matter but be fair.

                              https://www.theblaze.com/news/tapper...closing-acosta

                              I don't understand how people can still fall for this type of misrepresentation the the MSM is constantly doing.....the full video is out there.

                              ......but it's Trump........

                              "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                From the link:

                                People with “mild” cases are not coming out of it unscathed. Symptoms may reappear after a supposed recovery from COVID-19, and sometimes that can happen weeks or months later. “It’s almost like a blow to your ego to be in your 20s and healthy and active, and get hit with this thing and think you’re going to get better and you’re going to be OK. And then have it really not pan out that way,” says COVID-19 patient Fiona

                                You do realize that we are talking about school age children, not 20 somethings......


                                From the link:

                                Of the 43 patients examined, 12 suffered from inflammation of the central nervous system, 10 from a transient encephalopathy (brain disease) with delirium or psychosis, eight from strokes, and a further eight from problems of the peripheral nerves, mostly with the diagnosis of Guillain-Barré syndrome. This is an immune reaction that attacks the nerves and causes paralysis and is fatal in 5% of cases. A 59-year-old woman died of the complication.

                                Again, we are discussing school age children, not senior citizens.
                                From the link:

                                The study provides a detailed account of neurological symptoms of 43 people (aged 16-85) treated at the National Hospital for Neurology and Neurosurgery, UCLH, who had either confirmed or suspected Covid-19.

                                Again, we are discussing school age children, not a population between the ages of 16-85.
                                From the link:

                                The new coronavirus and the disease it causes are still just months old, meaning researchers have not been able to study the disease's long-term effects on people.

                                As mentioned numerous times, we don't know the long term effects.
                                From the link:

                                Because Covid-19 is a new disease, there are no studies about its long-term trajectory for those with more severe symptoms

                                As I have been saying all along.

                                Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
                                Etc... But i doubt it matters. You will just keep moving the goalposts.
                                Again, I am not moving goal post, I have been consistent throughout the thread. The above links that you provided clearly show that I am correct.
                                "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

                                Comment

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