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  • #61
    Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post

    Yes and no.

    Medicine like engineering is applied science. The science informs the model but technically the model itself is not science but something of an art form. As is medicine to the degree that complex, chaotic systems are irreducible and the current science is reductionist.
    Model and theory are the basis of science, they are not external to it. Don't know what you mean by "science is reductionist" but I guess that you confuse predictability and determinism. A system can be overall predictable without a determinist description.

    For the most part what distinguished science from other forms of empiricism is accuracy. An example is psychology and sociology. In theory they are more accurate than common sense empiricism.
    What disntinguish Science from so called Human Science is the reproducibility of experience independentely of experimentator.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post

      What Trump did was ban travel from China and the WHO condemned it.
      That constituted doing more than what the WHO did.

      Again, on 2/3 the WHO said:
      World Health Organization chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said on Monday there was no need for measures that “unnecessarily interfere with international travel and trade”
      https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN1ZX1H3

      The WHO leader goes on to applaud china for its actions even though there was already plenty of evidence that the chinese were hiding information. (see the timeline in posts #41 and 42.)
      And WHO was correct, travel ban had limited impact on virus spread around the world. Furthermore as you own link read, WHO did not pin point US ban travel alone but all of them.

      If you read post #42:
      Interestingly, on 1/6 the CDC issued a "travel watch" for people traveling to Wuhan and that the mode of transmission was not known yet. It was a week later that the WHO said there was "no evidence" of human to human transmission. As such, the WHO "knew of should have known" that saying there was "no evidence" was a false statement.

      Regardless, if you are going to excuse the WHO becuase the virus was "new and unknown" how do you fault Trump?
      Let's stop a moment. You argued that WHO lied to US government and that without those lies situation in US would have been better. I've shown you that due to its nature and mode of operation WHO cannot lie. To US or any other countries.

      Now you ask why I blame Trump administration, I've already answered to this question but will do once more : this administration ignored WHO as well own advice.

      When one read the "Press Briefing by Members of the President’s Coronavirus Task Force"

      https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings...us-task-force/

      It is clear that Trump don't say the same thing that Fauci and Redfield. Former assure that everything is under control while later warn that situation will worsen. How were supposed Governors as well US citizens react to such a difference ?

      I agree the virus was new and unknown, it still is. I fault the WHO for giving false information when they clearly should have been questioning what the chinese were telling them.
      When a CDC issue a finding transmited to WHO, the data is relayed to other CDC/Health organization including the original CDC. If data is altered or ignored the said CDC can inform directly other CDC over WHO. This event never hapenned during the crisis. Never.

      WHO never gave false information. It cannot. Period.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Metryll View Post

        And WHO was correct, travel ban had limited impact on virus spread around the world. Furthermore as you own link read, WHO did not pin point US ban travel alone but all of them.



        Let's stop a moment. You argued that WHO lied to US government and that without those lies situation in US would have been better. I've shown you that due to its nature and mode of operation WHO cannot lie. To US or any other countries.

        Now you ask why I blame Trump administration, I've already answered to this question but will do once more : this administration ignored WHO as well own advice.

        When one read the "Press Briefing by Members of the President’s Coronavirus Task Force"

        https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings...us-task-force/

        It is clear that Trump don't say the same thing that Fauci and Redfield. Former assure that everything is under control while later warn that situation will worsen. How were supposed Governors as well US citizens react to such a difference ?



        When a CDC issue a finding transmited to WHO, the data is relayed to other CDC/Health organization including the original CDC. If data is altered or ignored the said CDC can inform directly other CDC over WHO. This event never hapenned during the crisis. Never.

        WHO never gave false information. It cannot. Period.

        The WHO can lie. I'm sorry you think it is not possible for them to do so, but if they cannot lie, they are the first entity in human history that is unable to lie.

        The WHO has the ability and expertise to recognize the information they repeated was false.
        If you know the infomration is inaccurate and you repeat it anyway, you become complicit in the lie.

        The WHO's own people knew something was wrong with what China was saying, but the WHO didn't question it.
        If they have expertise as you claim then maybe they should have used it.

        You say the administration ignored WHO advice? As I said at the beginning, "which version"?
        The one that downplayed the threat or what they said later when the threat became well known and it was too late to stop?

        What did Trump do that "ignored:" their advice? His travel ban certainly ignored their advice, but he was ahead of the experts at WHO.

        Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

        Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
          ...how do you fault Trump?
          It's pretty simple actually.

          Trump has done next to nothing to rally the nation to combat the virus. He is much more concerned with his reelection than anything else.

          In point of fact, his 'efforts' in this area have been to mislead and misinform the American public and his vendetta against Dr Fauci and being anti-science, along with his useless, and quite dangerous, 'suggestions' to inject Lysol-type products into the human body in order to eradicate the virus.

          Republican governors of such states as Florida and Georgia follow Trump blindly and this, along with Trump's imbecility, have spread the virus across the country in huge numbers and has contributed to the 130,000+ American dead from the virus. In the end, Trump is responsible, though he refuses to accept responsibility for anything.

          And to my mind, anyone who supports this moron in any way are also contributing to the spread of the virus and the deaths that accompany it.

          We are not now that strength which in old days
          Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
          Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
          To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Massena View Post

            It's pretty simple actually.

            Trump has done next to nothing to rally the nation to combat the virus. He is much more concerned with his reelection than anything else.

            In point of fact, his 'efforts' in this area have been to mislead and misinform the American public and his vendetta against Dr Fauci and being anti-science, along with his useless, and quite dangerous, 'suggestions' to inject Lysol-type products into the human body in order to eradicate the virus.

            Republican governors of such states as Florida and Georgia follow Trump blindly and this, along with Trump's imbecility, have spread the virus across the country in huge numbers and has contributed to the 130,000+ American dead from the virus. In the end, Trump is responsible, though he refuses to accept responsibility for anything.

            And to my mind, anyone who supports this moron in any way are also contributing to the spread of the virus and the deaths that accompany it.
            1) "rally the nation" (feelings)

            2) you fault Florida and Georgia for "following trump".
            Did you know trhat Illinois which did not follow trump has almsot 2x as many deaths as florida? And Florida has twice as many people?
            Illinois also has a higher death rate than Georgia. How are such things possible if their actions are responsible for killing people?

            I noted you didn't mention Illinois or NY. In New York, the dem gov( who didn't follow trump) sent infected people back into nursing homes. 7000 died. How can you blame that crime on anyone but Cuomo?

            Trump spread the virus?
            Trump can't order lockdowns. You know that, but pretend it isn't a fact so you don't have to admit the obvious.

            Some relevant facts.


            Illinois 7,193 deaths
            https://patch.com/illinois/across-il...s-7-187-deaths



            Florida deaths 4,409
            https://www.chicagotribune.com/natio...s3i-story.html

            New York 18,708 deaths.
            https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page

            Georgia 3026 deaths
            https://www.wjcl.com/article/coronav...3000/33300807#

            It looks like the facts aren't on your side about how awful it is in states that allegedly followed trump.
            Last edited by Cambronnne; 14 Jul 20, 11:29.
            Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

            Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Metryll View Post

              Model and theory are the basis of science, they are not external to it. Don't know what you mean by "science is reductionist" but I guess that you confuse predictability and determinism. A system can be overall predictable without a determinist description.



              What disntinguish Science from so called Human Science is the reproducibility of experience independentely of experimentator.
              Well you got it partially right. Science has to have reproducible results or a theory that can be tested. Unfortunately that is only possible if the can reduce the question to a controlled environment. With the exception of nomological networks of cumulative evidence. Of which the theory of evolution would be an example.

              Mathematical models do not prove theories they are just a tool. Physics for example has developed many near perfect models that lacking empirical support are generally rejected. In the case in question over time there may come to exist nomological networks of cumulative evidence sufficient to support theory but we are not there yet.

              With the possible exception of quantum mechanics all science is deterministic. It is also probabilistic in the sense that measurements are limited by the tools available. All models are thus estimations of reality some being very accurate and precise analogies. The nature of reality or the thing itself is unknowable. That is why the concept of truth as generally understood doesn't apply.



              We hunt the hunters

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                Immunologists deal with the immune system not virologists.
                Friston is a stats specialist as you say and in the interview he is careful to stick to his brief. Re 'the immunology dark matter' Essentially he is saying that the numbers only add up if you assume that a relatively small proportion c20% are actually vulnerable to Covid. Unlike what Ferguson did in March he is using models to try and explain real world events rather than making predictions.


                But Friston is only part of the picture. A number of papers of been published by immunology specialists on the immune response, particularly focusing on T cells rather than anti bodies. These papers indicate that the reason that Friston's numbers only add up if you assume that only a proportion of people are susceptible despite only relatively small numbers testing positive for anti bodies is the T cell response to the virus. T cells are responding to the virus in people who have not been exposed to the disease. There is evidence that levels of immunity are much higher than indicated from the number of people with positive antibodies.

                https://news.ki.se/immunity-to-covid...sts-have-shown
                But he is not even an immunoogist. He is a statistician...
                Essentially, he cannot know in what ways the number add or do not add up without knowing the theory of the phenomenon that the statistics describe. Being a good statistician does not make somebody capable of interpreting the statistical results.

                You chose to quote Friston, so I responded to what you posted. If you have other evidence of what you say, you can post it. Still, I have not seen anybody claiming that Sweden accomplished herd immunity base on evidence fro T cells or whatever...
                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by pamak View Post

                  But he is not even an immunoogist. He is a statistician...
                  Essentially, he cannot know in what ways the number add or do not add up without knowing the theory of the phenomenon that the statistics describe. Being a good statistician does not make somebody capable of interpreting the statistical results.

                  You chose to quote Friston, so I responded to what you posted. If you have other evidence of what you say, you can post it. Still, I have not seen anybody claiming that Sweden accomplished herd immunity base on evidence fro T cells or whatever...
                  The link to the Swedish university above gives the story on T- cells. The statistician sets the seen and the clinicians answer the question.
                  "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post
                    The WHO can lie. I'm sorry you think it is not possible for them to do so, but if they cannot lie, they are the first entity in human history that is unable to lie.
                    How ?

                    The WHO has the ability and expertise to recognize the information they repeated was false.
                    If you know the infomration is inaccurate and you repeat it anyway, you become complicit in the lie.
                    Which information WHO repeated that it knew was false ? And as corollary why no US health agency nor any CDC around the world did not noticed it and made public statment about it.

                    The WHO's own people knew something was wrong with what China was saying, but the WHO didn't question it.
                    If they have expertise as you claim then maybe they should have used it.
                    Then provide their names, position and claim. If internationnaly renowed epidemiologists are not expert who is an expert ? Have Fauci or Redfield issued statment supporting your claim ?

                    You say the administration ignored WHO advice? As I said at the beginning, "which version"?
                    The one that downplayed the threat or what they said later when the threat became well known and it was too late to stop?
                    WHO never downplayed the threat. If now you support this idea the WHO website is there :

                    https://www.who.int/home

                    Try to search. But be forewarned, searching for something that does not exist may be quite time consumming.

                    What did Trump do that "ignored:" their advice? His travel ban certainly ignored their advice, but he was ahead of the experts at WHO.
                    Safe that WHO was correct : travel ban had limited effect on virus spread. Moreover US ban was not the first one but definitively the most hilarious.
                    Last edited by Metryll; 14 Jul 20, 13:42.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                      The link to the Swedish university above gives the story on T- cells. The statistician sets the seen and the clinicians answer the question.
                      I am not interested in the interpretation of the studies by a statistician. Not even the Swedes make such claim (herd immunity) for Stockholm as I showed in my link! I am more interested from hearing the experts on the field. And what I hear from them, including with respect to T-cells is not even close to the claim that we have achieved her immunity.

                      https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/13/opini...ine/index.html

                      We're wasting time talking about herd immunity


                      Excerpts

                      While SARS and MERS are the coronaviruses that grab the headlines, there are four other mostly unknown coronaviruses that are much more common: 229E, HKU1, NL63 and OC43. What we know from 60 years of research into these viruses is that they come back year after year and reinfect the same people -- over and over again.

                      Earlier studies showed that the very same strain of a coronavirus that causes a cold one year can do so again the following year. Unlike with flu viruses, which mutate frequently and often infect us with new strains each year, the coronavirus need not change to reinfect. Recent data suggests that SARS-CoV-2 follows the same pattern. Following infection and recovery, all antibodies to the virus begin to fade quickly, including those which may be protective.

                      The body's T cell response may also be an important factor for immunity, but it won't be the answer. T cells help our immune system by killing off infected cells and activating other immune cells to fight off the infection. We know people make robust and sometimes long-lasting T cell responses to cold causing coronaviruses.
                      However important the T cell response may be in clearing infection, it is clear that it does not prevent reinfection,
                      which occurs regularly with the more common coronaviruses.

                      Here is the author's bio

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_A._Haseltine

                      William A. Haseltine (born October 17, 1944) is an American scientist, businessman, author, and philanthropist. He is known for his groundbreaking work on HIV/AIDS and the human genome. Haseltine was a professor at Harvard Medical School where he founded two research departments on cancer and HIV/AIDS. Haseltine is a founder of several biotechnology companies including Cambridge Biosciences, The Virus Research Institute, ProScript, LeukoSite, Dendreon, Diversa, X-VAX, and Demetrix. He was a founder chairman and CEO of Human Genome Sciences, a company that pioneered the application of genomics to drug discovery. He is the president of the Haseltine Foundation for Science and the Arts and is the founder, chairman, and president of ACCESS Health International, a not-for-profit organization dedicated to improving access to high-quality health worldwide. He was listed by Time Magazine as one of the world's 25 most influential business people in 2001 and one of the 100 most influential leaders in biotechnology[1] by Scientific American in 2015.

                      I will take his opinion anytime over the opinion of a statistician, and especially over the opinion of a statistician who gives clinical answers about the big variation of infections among countries by introducing novel terms like "immunological dark matter." Immunologists should be the people who talk about any matter related to the interpretation of statistical observations.
                      Last edited by pamak; 14 Jul 20, 13:24.
                      My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                        Well you got it partially right. Science has to have reproducible results or a theory that can be tested. Unfortunately that is only possible if the can reduce the question to a controlled environment. With the exception of nomological networks of cumulative evidence. Of which the theory of evolution would be an example.
                        According to you Astrophysic does not exist. It is not a matter of controlled environment as such, it is a matter of initial parameters which must lead to identical results while those parameters dont change. One can close the window in a experiment on optical laws of Descartes but no one can ask a supernovae to explode exactly as the last observed.

                        Axioms in Maths or Principles in Physic (different name, same concept) have no bearing on Science by themselves due to their nature. Only their abilty to prove/disprove a given theory matter.

                        Mathematical models do not prove theories they are just a tool. Physics for example has developed many near perfect models that lacking empirical support are generally rejected. In the case in question over time there may come to exist nomological networks of cumulative evidence sufficient to support theory but we are not there yet.
                        No one argue that model do prove theory but that their are part of science.

                        With the possible exception of quantum mechanics all science is deterministic. It is also probabilistic in the sense that measurements are limited by the tools available. All models are thus estimations of reality some being very accurate and precise analogies. The nature of reality or the thing itself is unknowable. That is why the concept of truth as generally understood doesn't apply.
                        Meteorology does not use quantum mechanics and is not deterministic. Once again you confuse predictability, that is abilty to predict a result given a set of parameters whith determinism which state that all cause known the result is also known. Unknown cause(s) is/are called uncertainty. When dealing with uncertainty scientists and engineers do use probabilities

                        It may require a huge amount of work to reduce uncertainty. Appolo program is a fine example, and even then Armstrong and Aldrin faced an unexpected alarm while landing the Eagle.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Metryll View Post

                          How ?



                          Which information WHO repeated that it knew was false ? And as corollary why no US health agency nor any CDC around the world did not noticed it and made public statment about it.



                          Then provide their names, position and claim. If internationnaly renowed epidemiologists are not expert who is an expert ? Have Fauci or Redfield issued statment supporting your claim ?



                          WHO never downplayed the threat. If now you support this idea the WHO website is there :

                          https://www.who.int/home

                          Try to search. But be forewarned, searching for something that does not exist may be quite time consumming.



                          Safe that WHO was correct : travel ban had limited effect on virus spread. Moreover US ban was not the first one but definitively the most hilarious.
                          I was unaware that the WHO was incapable of sin. The US government can lie, the Chinese absolutely can lie, but not the WHO.

                          I did provide the name and a link of the WHO’s own expert in an earlier . It addressed the 1/14 tweet. See my post #46

                          Never downplayed the threat?
                          In an article defending the WHO, Time said:

                          In January, Tedros praised “China’s commitment to transparency and to supporting other countries. In many ways, China is actually setting a new standard for outbreak response.” This despite credible charges that China hid the scale of the virus and punished Chinese doctors who publicly warned that risks were growing.
                          https://time.com/5836602/world-healt...n-coronavirus/

                          The WHO downplayed the threat when it issued the 1?14 tweet and condemned trump’s travel ban.
                          That was easy.

                          Also:
                          Though the organization declared the virus a global health emergency in January, Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus didn’t begin characterizing it as a pandemic until March 11, when the virus had already been confirmed in at least 114 countries.

                          and mentioned in the above article is how the WHO submits to China’s demands that Taiwan be ignored. The WHO submits to this political demand and ignores the health of the 24 million people in Taiwan and refused to consider Taiwan’s warnings.

                          The head of the WHO even stormed out of an interview when just asked about Taiwan.

                          Sure sounds like politics play an important role In an organization allegedly just concerned with our health.
                          Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                          Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post

                            I was unaware that the WHO was incapable of sin. The US government can lie, the Chinese absolutely can lie, but not the WHO.

                            I did provide the name and a link of the WHO’s own expert in an earlier . It addressed the 1/14 tweet. See my post #46

                            Never downplayed the threat?
                            In an article defending the WHO, Time said:


                            In January, Tedros praised “China’s commitment to transparency and to supporting other countries. In many ways, China is actually setting a new standard for outbreak response.” This despite credible charges that China hid the scale of the virus and punished Chinese doctors who publicly warned that risks were growing.

                            https://time.com/5836602/world-healt...n-coronavirus/

                            The WHO downplayed the threat when it issued the 1?14 tweet and condemned trump’s travel ban.
                            That was easy.

                            Also:
                            Though the organization declared the virus a global health emergency in January, Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus didn’t begin characterizing it as a pandemic until March 11, when the virus had already been confirmed in at least 114 countries.

                            and mentioned in the above article is how the WHO submits to China’s demands that Taiwan be ignored. The WHO submits to this political demand and ignores the health of the 24 million people in Taiwan and refused to consider Taiwan’s warnings.

                            The head of the WHO even stormed out of an interview when just asked about Taiwan.

                            Sure sounds like politics play an important role In an organization allegedly just concerned with our health.
                            Let's play the game...

                            If WHO lied when it praised China in January, then do you accept that Pence lied too when he did the same in February?



                            Feb 7, 2020


                            Vice President Mike Pence: China has shown 'unprecedented' transparency on coronavirus

                            Or is it that only WHO lies but the Trump administration does not?

                            You cannot pick and choose to support a claim based on who is praising China. The fact that political considerations and diplomacy are at play (including in WHO's interactions with China) is not debated.


                            The issue is if it makes sense that at the time when the whole world expected from China to share ASAP data about the new coronavirus made sense to start a confrontation with the nation that had exclusive control of the preliminary coronavirus data and waste time exchanging accusations while scientists in the rest of the world were staying idle without being able to examine the Chinese data...

                            If the argument is that WHO's praise at the time give a good reason for criticizing the organization and for removing the US from it then we should also conclude that the same behavior of the Trump administration at about the same time gives a good reason for criticizing it and for removing it from the US government.
                            Last edited by pamak; 14 Jul 20, 17:25.
                            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by pamak View Post

                              I am not interested in the interpretation of the studies by a statistician. Not even the Swedes make such claim (herd immunity) for Stockholm as I showed in my link! I am more interested from hearing the experts on the field. And what I hear from them, including with respect to T-cells is not even close to the claim that we have achieved her immunity.

                              https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/13/opini...ine/index.html

                              We're wasting time talking about herd immunity


                              Excerpts

                              While SARS and MERS are the coronaviruses that grab the headlines, there are four other mostly unknown coronaviruses that are much more common: 229E, HKU1, NL63 and OC43. What we know from 60 years of research into these viruses is that they come back year after year and reinfect the same people -- over and over again.

                              Earlier studies showed that the very same strain of a coronavirus that causes a cold one year can do so again the following year. Unlike with flu viruses, which mutate frequently and often infect us with new strains each year, the coronavirus need not change to reinfect. Recent data suggests that SARS-CoV-2 follows the same pattern. Following infection and recovery, all antibodies to the virus begin to fade quickly, including those which may be protective.

                              The body's T cell response may also be an important factor for immunity, but it won't be the answer. T cells help our immune system by killing off infected cells and activating other immune cells to fight off the infection. We know people make robust and sometimes long-lasting T cell responses to cold causing coronaviruses.
                              However important the T cell response may be in clearing infection, it is clear that it does not prevent reinfection,
                              which occurs regularly with the more common coronaviruses.

                              Here is the author's bio

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_A._Haseltine

                              William A. Haseltine (born October 17, 1944) is an American scientist, businessman, author, and philanthropist. He is known for his groundbreaking work on HIV/AIDS and the human genome. Haseltine was a professor at Harvard Medical School where he founded two research departments on cancer and HIV/AIDS. Haseltine is a founder of several biotechnology companies including Cambridge Biosciences, The Virus Research Institute, ProScript, LeukoSite, Dendreon, Diversa, X-VAX, and Demetrix. He was a founder chairman and CEO of Human Genome Sciences, a company that pioneered the application of genomics to drug discovery. He is the president of the Haseltine Foundation for Science and the Arts and is the founder, chairman, and president of ACCESS Health International, a not-for-profit organization dedicated to improving access to high-quality health worldwide. He was listed by Time Magazine as one of the world's 25 most influential business people in 2001 and one of the 100 most influential leaders in biotechnology[1] by Scientific American in 2015.

                              I will take his opinion anytime over the opinion of a statistician, and especially over the opinion of a statistician who gives clinical answers about the big variation of infections among countries by introducing novel terms like "immunological dark matter." Immunologists should be the people who talk about any matter related to the interpretation of statistical observations.
                              As I said the T cell effect is the opinion of the Immunologists, physicians, epidemiologists etc at the Karolinska institute in Sweden. The statistician (who is a professor at UCL who routinely works with disease spread so not simply any statistician) was simply saying that there most be an effect that is causing the deaths and cases across Europe and East Asia to drop as the number testing positive antibodies is not sufficient on its own to justify it. Sweden as you know has like the UK and elsewhere in Europe seen its deaths plummet despite having a much milder lockdown than most. If there was no significant immunity then a country Sweden would have a much higher level of deaths.
                              The T-cell effect identified by the Swedes is a reaction against Covid specifically. Other studies have identified a T cell response in individuals with no prior exposure to Covid due to cross immunity with other Coruna viruses. This is one of the speculated reasons why children are so resistant to Covid, they get colds.

                              https://unherd.com/thepost/swedish-d...-19-in-sweden/

                              The Swedes explain their research in the above interview.

                              There is evidence for large scale immunity in places like New York both through the anti body tests and through evidence of what is happening on the ground. There is no uptick in New York deaths and the shape of its graph is very different from California's or Florida's despite a gradual relaxation of restrictions.


                              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                                As I said the T cell effect is the opinion of the Immunologists, physicians, epidemiologists etc at the Karolinska institute in Sweden. The statistician (who is a professor at UCL who routinely works with disease spread so not simply any statistician) was simply saying that there most be an effect that is causing the deaths and cases across Europe and East Asia to drop as the number testing positive antibodies is not sufficient on its own to justify it. Sweden as you know has like the UK and elsewhere in Europe seen its deaths plummet despite having a much milder lockdown than most. If there was no significant immunity then a country Sweden would have a much higher level of deaths.
                                The T-cell effect identified by the Swedes is a reaction against Covid specifically. Other studies have identified a T cell response in individuals with no prior exposure to Covid due to cross immunity with other Coruna viruses. This is one of the speculated reasons why children are so resistant to Covid, they get colds.

                                https://unherd.com/thepost/swedish-d...-19-in-sweden/

                                The Swedes explain their research in the above interview.

                                There is evidence for large scale immunity in places like New York both through the anti body tests and through evidence of what is happening on the ground. There is no uptick in New York deaths and the shape of its graph is very different from California's or Florida's despite a gradual relaxation of restrictions.

                                Can we agree that there is not any claim that any T-cell effect has brought immunity in Sweden?

                                The whole conversation started while we were talking about "herd immunity" That there is some effect of t cells on immunity is not debated. Eve the article I cited mentions that " The body's T cell response may also be an important factor for immunity...", but a positive effect does not equate with "herd immunity"

                                And we also do not argue regarding if there must be "something" that causes the drop of death and cases across Europe and East Asia. We are debating if it is "herd immunity" what causes now this drop. And it is irresponsible to talk that it is herd immunity that causes sc drop when there are perfectly logical ways to explain possible causes for such drop and enough counter evidence to show that we have not developed herd immunity.

                                As you know deaths from viruses, including from the flu come in waves (usually two per year for the flu), and explaining a drop that you see during the last month is in no way evidence of herd immunity.

                                Last edited by pamak; 14 Jul 20, 20:12.
                                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

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