Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

An Increase in Coronavirus Deaths

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post

    Which version of WHO advice?
    The one based on known facts at time advice were issued.

    There were several based entirely on what the Chinese wanted them to say.
    Which show that despite facts cheking made by several posters about how WHO actually work have been simply ignored by some here. See no purpose to do it once again. It is obviously a waste of time.

    The trump administration did not have authority to lockdown the states. He did have authority to ban travel from china and was attacked for it.
    But administration through various agency including US CDC had mean to issue advice. Those agencies did so to US administration, and the same than WHO because all CDC around the world as well health agencies coordinates trough an international agency.
    You know, by the WHO...

    World Health Organization chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said on Monday there was no need for measures that “unnecessarily interfere with international travel and trade” in trying to halt the spread of a coronavirus that has killed 361 people in China.
    Referring to the virus’ spread abroad, he said it was “minimal and slow”, while warning that it could worsen.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN1ZX1H3
    #1 Ban was not needed because China was already running one. According to article by February 3 there was only 153 cases outside China in 23 countries and a single death in Phillipines.

    #2 "Referring to the virus’ spread abroad, he said it was “minimal and slow”, while warning that it could worsen." It is written black on white in your linked article.

    WHO advice by early February was coherent with known data made available at this time.

    The point is
    1) The WHO lied to us. And condemned efforts to address the virus.
    2) Trump had no legal authority to implement lockdowns at state level.
    In real world :

    1) WHO did not lied. Anyone who search how WHO work know also that it is simply impossible. While I know that you will ignore this, let's repeat : WHO does not gave advice for single country like USA alone but provided the very same information to ALL countries around the world. To my knowledge, the sole and only government now claiming about "lies" is the US.

    2) Federal government, through its agencies has the duty to inform governor about known or anticipated risks. Clearly Trump administration failed to do so in early days of pandemy.

    Now have you heard, or read any comments made by an US health agency/organization that information provided by WHO was purposely incorrect ? If so please, feel free to cite them. AFAIK neither US CDC and John Hopkins Hospital ever issued such a statment.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post

      Which version of WHO advice?

      ...


      The point is
      1) The WHO lied to us. And condemned efforts to address the virus.
      2) Trump had no legal authority to implement lockdowns at state level.

      Others have talked about the WHO. I respond to 2).


      Trump clearly chose to bully governors who were cautious with their lockdowns and praise governors who chose to take a gamble.

      With such attitude, Trump's leadership undermined local governors and the public trust of Trump supporters to the recommendation of experts and local officials who were urging the public to be more cautious.

      The same undermining was observed with the issue of masks. Instead of Trump setting the example he chose instead to troll Bidden and journalists who were wearing it.

      No law or constitution forced Trump to make such decisions. He chose to make this a cultural issue at a time when thee cooperation of common citizens was necessary to handle in a comprehensive way the virus at a national level. Notice also, that Trump never had a problem with using federal funds to pressure local governments to do his bidding. He does the same thing now with the schools. It is clear that Trump was pushing from the beginning for the shortest possible lockdowns based on political considerations and not scientific

      Trump's failed leadership is a major factor for what we see now

      https://www.statista.com/chart/22102...us-and-the-eu/

      22102.jpg
      Last edited by pamak; 12 Jul 20, 17:35.
      My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Metryll View Post

        The one based on known facts at time advice were issued.



        Which show that despite facts cheking made by several posters about how WHO actually work have been simply ignored by some here. See no purpose to do it once again. It is obviously a waste of time.



        But administration through various agency including US CDC had mean to issue advice. Those agencies did so to US administration, and the same than WHO because all CDC around the world as well health agencies coordinates trough an international agency.
        You know, by the WHO...



        #1 Ban was not needed because China was already running one. According to article by February 3 there was only 153 cases outside China in 23 countries and a single death in Phillipines.

        #2 "Referring to the virus’ spread abroad, he said it was “minimal and slow”, while warning that it could worsen." It is written black on white in your linked article.

        WHO advice by early February was coherent with known data made available at this time.



        In real world :

        1) WHO did not lied. Anyone who search how WHO work know also that it is simply impossible. While I know that you will ignore this, let's repeat : WHO does not gave advice for single country like USA alone but provided the very same information to ALL countries around the world. To my knowledge, the sole and only government now claiming about "lies" is the US.

        2) Federal government, through its agencies has the duty to inform governor about known or anticipated risks. Clearly Trump administration failed to do so in early days of pandemy.

        Now have you heard, or read any comments made by an US health agency/organization that information provided by WHO was purposely incorrect ? If so please, feel free to cite them. AFAIK neither US CDC and John Hopkins Hospital ever issued such a statment.
        So we can’t blame the WHO for issuing false advice (UN human to human transmission despite evidence to the contrary) because those were the “facts known at the time”, but we will fault the trump administration despite the fact that the WHO was supplying false information and the Chinese were lying as well?

        I’ll repeat (even though I know that you will ignore this) the WHO gave false information, condemned useful actions to combat the spread but they can’t be faulted because they allegedly give advice to everyone (wrong advice apparently)

        I have read that the WHO told us there was no evidence of human to human transmission despite being told that there was evidence of such transmission.
        An honest WHO wouldn’t have said that.
        An honest WHO wouldn’t have condemned efforts to block travel.

        The WHO dismissed the travel ban because it would unnecessarily interfere with travel and trade. It did not say, as you now suggest, that it was too late.
        It said that the spread of the virus was “minimal and slow” which was precisely the opposite of the actual situation.
        Saying “it could worsen” doesn’t change the lie.

        But yeah, the WHO should be excused for giving out bad information but Trump must be condemned for accepting their bad information. You really can’t have it both ways.
        Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

        Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post

          So we can’t blame the WHO for issuing false advice (UN human to human transmission despite evidence to the contrary) because those were the “facts known at the time”, but we will fault the trump administration despite the fact that the WHO was supplying false information and the Chinese were lying as well?

          I’ll repeat (even though I know that you will ignore this) the WHO gave false information, condemned useful actions to combat the spread but they can’t be faulted because they allegedly give advice to everyone (wrong advice apparently)

          I have read that the WHO told us there was no evidence of human to human transmission despite being told that there was evidence of such transmission.
          An honest WHO wouldn’t have said that.
          An honest WHO wouldn’t have condemned efforts to block travel.

          The WHO dismissed the travel ban because it would unnecessarily interfere with travel and trade. It did not say, as you now suggest, that it was too late.

          It said that the spread of the virus was “minimal and slow” which was precisely the opposite of the actual situation.
          Saying “it could worsen” doesn’t change the lie.

          But yeah, the WHO should be excused for giving out bad information but Trump must be condemned for accepting their bad information. You really can’t have it both ways.
          You misrepresent the facts and you do not take in consideration the dates of the different statements.

          We had a thread explaining when and what WHO said what it did not say. For example, regarding the red part from that thread


          https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...53#post5185853

          By mid January, Chinese doctors knew that COVID-19 was spreading between humans, but on January 14, the WHO stated that there was “no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus.”

          The timeline does not establish a case of blaming WHO for reporting on 14th January that according to the Chinese, there was no clear evidence of human to human transmission. The WHO had to work with the Chinese government. And we also know that scientific results and indicators can be debated among scientists even in democratic countries


          ...

          On top of that, it is CLEAR that within a week WHO mentions on January 23rd that there ARE cases of human to human transmission in China.

          Meanwhile more than a month after it was clear that there were human to human transmissions and thousands of deaths in China, Trump was talking about the "hoax" of the CV danger that was created by the democrats to scare us.

          Feb 29, 2020



          Nobody should blame WHO for such statement and for the belief that Trump apparently had that a travel ban will keep the US safe. He must be held accountable for such gross misjudgment of the danger even a month after it was clear that the virus could transmit from human to humans and was capable of inflicting thousands of casualties.

          Similar distortions exist with the claim that WHO "condemned efforts to block travel" Again you need to see the actual statements which are more nuanced than hw you present them.
          Last edited by pamak; 12 Jul 20, 22:18.
          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post

            So we can’t blame the WHO for issuing false advice (UN human to human transmission despite evidence to the contrary) because those were the “facts known at the time”, but we will fault the trump administration despite the fact that the WHO was supplying false information and the Chinese were lying as well?
            And it don't strike you that neither Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Czech, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, India, Italy, Ireland, Israel, Japan, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Spain, South Korea, Sweden, United Kingdom do blame WHO ?

            I’ll repeat (even though I know that you will ignore this) the WHO gave false information, condemned useful actions to combat the spread but they can’t be faulted because they allegedly give advice to everyone (wrong advice apparently)
            Said to you twice in this thread, ignored twice. Let's go for a third : WHO gave information made available at a given time. Those information were based on data provided by Member States.

            I have read that the WHO told us there was no evidence of human to human transmission despite being told that there was evidence of such transmission.
            An honest WHO wouldn’t have said that.
            An honest WHO wouldn’t have condemned efforts to block travel.

            The WHO dismissed the travel ban because it would unnecessarily interfere with travel and trade. It did not say, as you now suggest, that it was too late.
            It said that the spread of the virus was “minimal and slow” which was precisely the opposite of the actual situation.
            Saying “it could worsen” doesn’t change the lie.
            Read my answer above or Pamak post saying the very same : known data, time of advice.

            But yeah, the WHO should be excused for giving out bad information but Trump must be condemned for accepting their bad information. You really can’t have it both ways.
            Trump administration did not accepted WHO data, it choose to ignored it instead. No US health angency/organization share the blame because they did their jobs : their coodinated their efforts and spread the common knowledge. No one asked/forced this administration to ignore his own agencies.

            Comment


            • #36
              Another aspect which the WHO advice did not take into account - a fact which was not known at the time either - was the assumption that the disease would primarily spread from symptomatic persons. In which case temperature testing, and screening at airport would have worked. Now we had a virus which has also a pre-symptomatic spreading. We can learn from this but to try to take that into account in the future (which in practice means quarantines/isolation for arrivals) but as said at the time that was either not known or not verified. So if you view the travel advisory in light of this it makes sense.
              It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by pamak View Post

                What I have seen is that not even Sweden has developed herd immunity...

                So, I am interested to see your sources

                https://www.npr.org/sections/coronav...-total-mistake

                June 26, 2020

                Days before the WHO issued its warning, Sweden reported 1,699 new coronavirus cases — its biggest spike yet, according to data from the Swedish
                Ministry of Health and Social Affairs. So far this month, Sweden has set a new record for daily case numbers every week.

                ...


                Swedish officials had said earlier this year that the city of Stockholm was on course to reach "herd immunity". A target date was set for the end of May, though last month officials acknowledged that the goal would not be met.
                Sweden seems to be doing OK.

                "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Metryll View Post

                  And it don't strike you that neither Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Czech, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, India, Italy, Ireland, Israel, Japan, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Spain, South Korea, Sweden, United Kingdom do blame WHO ?



                  Said to you twice in this thread, ignored twice. Let's go for a third : WHO gave information made available at a given time. Those information were based on data provided by Member States.



                  Read my answer above or Pamak post saying the very same : known data, time of advice.



                  Trump administration did not accepted WHO data, it choose to ignored it instead. No US health angency/organization share the blame because they did their jobs : their coodinated their efforts and spread the common knowledge. No one asked/forced this administration to ignore his own agencies.
                  Well if all the cool kids say the WHO is fine, then I will ignore the simple facts that they issued information they knew, or should have known to be wrong. (i.e. no human to human transmission)

                  I note you included japan int he group that didn't blame WHO.

                  “People think the World Health Organization should change its name,” Deputy Prime Minister Taro Aso said while speaking in the Japanese parliament on Wednesday, according to translators. “It shouldn’t be called the WHO. It should be renamed the CHO."

                  “Early on, if the WHO had not insisted to the world that China had no pneumonia epidemic, then everybody would have taken precautions,” he continued.


                  https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...h-organization


                  Sorry you have to keep repeating WHO's claim, but they had evidence what china was telling them was not true, but they repeated the lie from china just the same. One would think actual experts would know better.


                  The WHO had information that indicated human to human transmission. They pretended it away. Or did as the chinese instructed.

                  In March, Taiwan’s Vice President Chen Chien-jen, an epidemiologist-turned-politician, told the Financial Times the WHO had failed to relay the island’s early warning that the disease could be transmitted between people.
                  https://time.com/5826025/taiwan-who-...virus-covid19/


                  It was only after assuring the world there was no evidence of human to human transmission that the WHO issued an accurate statement saying there was evidence that suggests it is possible but more investigation is needed.


                  Last edited by Cambronnne; 13 Jul 20, 09:45.
                  Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

                  Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    NYC reported no new deaths yesterday. But the so-called red states such as Florida showed record hospitalizations.

                    We are testing more..but hospitalizations are a separate issue and some republican ran states are reporting full capacity hospitals. We have seen the virus turn from democrat controlled states to Republican controlled states.

                    This is why I have been saying all along we need the federal government to create jobs to produce more hospital equipment just in case we need them.


                    Texas, Arizona and Florida are at risk.
                    Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
                    Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

                    George S Patton

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      The thread is locked, so I can't "bump" it, but the 'blame game' was played earlier, here;

                      https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...le#post5180249
                      TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                      “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
                      Present Current Events are the Future's History

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        A replay from the above thread, for memory refresh and context;
                        ...
                        The Comprehensive Timeline of China’s COVID-19 Lies
                        By Jim Geraghty
                        March 23, 2020 9:13 AM
                        ..............................................
                        The story of the coronavirus pandemic is still being written. But at this early date, we can see all kinds of moments where different decisions could have lessened the severity of the outbreak we are currently enduring. You have probably heard variations of: “Chinese authorities denied that the virus could be transferred from human to human until it was too late.” What you have probably not heard is how emphatically, loudly, and repeatedly the Chinese government insisted human transmission was impossible, long after doctors in Wuhan had concluded human transmission was ongoing — and how the World Health Organization assented to that conclusion, despite the suspicions of other outside health experts.

                        Clearly, the U.S. government’s response to this threat was not nearly robust enough, and not enacted anywhere near quickly enough. Most European governments weren’t prepared either. Few governments around the world were or are prepared for the scale of the danger. We can only wonder whether accurate and timely information from China would have altered the way the U.S. government, the American people, and the world prepared for the oncoming danger of infection.

                        Some point in late 2019: The coronavirus jumps from some animal species to a human being. The best guess at this point is that it happened at a Chinese “wet market.”
                        ....................................
                        > I could highlight those above paragraphs all in RED, but hopefully the reads will give thoughtful consideration and grasp to what they preamble. Between not knowing how long this EVENT will run, and the probability of similar ones in the future, there are essential lessons to learn (once again) from what is now happening.
                        ....................................
                        December 6: According to a study in The Lancet, the symptom onset date of the first patient identified was “Dec 1, 2019 . . . 5 days after illness onset, his wife, a 53-year-old woman who had no known history of exposure to the market, also presented with pneumonia and was hospitalized in the isolation ward.” In other words, as early as the second week of December, Wuhan doctors were finding cases that indicated the virus was spreading from one human to another.
                        > NOTE: First "evidence" of human to human transmission AND this disease is still an unknown and considered "pneumonia" (which would be more a symptom than the illness).
                        ...................................
                        December 21: Wuhan doctors begin to notice a “cluster of pneumonia cases with an unknown cause.

                        December 25: Chinese medical staff in two hospitals in Wuhan are suspected of contracting viral pneumonia and are quarantined. This is additional strong evidence of human-to-human transmission.

                        Sometime in “Late December”: Wuhan hospitals notice “an exponential increase” in the number of cases that cannot be linked back to the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, according to the New England Journal of Medicine.
                        > NOTE
                        1)exponential increases;
                        2)not linked to the "wet market",
                        3)still an UNKNOWN classed as pneumonia.

                        ..............................................
                        December 30: Dr. Li Wenliang sent a message to a group of other doctors warning them about a possible outbreak of an illness that resembled severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), urging them to take protective measures against infection.
                        > SARS is an early version of a "coronavirus".
                        ............................................
                        December 31: The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission declares, “The investigation so far has not found any obvious human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infection.” This is the opposite of the belief of the doctors working on patients in Wuhan, and two doctors were already suspected of contracting the virus.

                        Three weeks after doctors first started noticing the cases, China contacts the World Health Organization.

                        Tao Lina, a public-health expert and former official with Shanghai’s center for disease control and prevention, tells the South China Morning Post, “I think we are [now] quite capable of killing it in the beginning phase, given China’s disease control system, emergency handling capacity and clinical medicine support.”
                        > First signs of the "save face" official denial policy, and first (missed) opportunity to contain the "new virus".
                        .......................................
                        January 1: The Wuhan Public Security Bureau issued summons to Dr. Li Wenliang, accusing him of “spreading rumors.” Two days later, at a police station, Dr. Li signed a statement acknowledging his “misdemeanor” and promising not to commit further “unlawful acts.” Seven other people are arrested on similar charges and their fate is unknown.
                        > RED highlights show and make clear that a Cover-Up is gaining traction.

                        Also that day, “after several batches of genome sequence results had been returned to hospitals and submitted to health authorities, an employee of one genomics company received a phone call from an official at the Hubei Provincial Health Commission, ordering the company to stop testing samples from Wuhan related to the new disease and destroy all existing samples.”
                        > More evidence of Official denial and cover-up. Note this is nearly two weeks before the misleading WHO statement.
                        ................................................
                        https://www.nationalreview.com/the-m...astating-lies/

                        > I'm going to break here for brevity sake and pick-up on the next post.
                        Underlined text in the excerpts are embed click-links to sources.
                        TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                        “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
                        Present Current Events are the Future's History

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          PART 2
                          The Comprehensive Timeline of China’s COVID-19 Lies
                          By Jim Geraghty
                          March 23, 2020 9:13 AM
                          ..................................................
                          January 1:
                          According to a New York Times study of cellphone data from China, 175,000 people leave Wuhan that day. According to global travel data research firm OAG, 21 countries have direct flights to Wuhan. In the first quarter of 2019 for comparison, 13,267 air passengers traveled from Wuhan, China, to destinations in the United States, or about 4,422 per month. The U.S. government would not bar foreign nationals who had traveled to China from entering the country for another month.

                          > Additionally, people travel in and out of Wuhan to other parts of China and along with spreading infection throughout their own country, there are flights out of other Chinese cities to the USA and other nations, making the potential spread even greater than these numbers suggest. Still, at least about 9,000 coming into the USA before any travel ban.
                          ..............................................
                          January 2: One study of patients in Wuhan can only connect 27 of 41 infected patients to exposure to the Huanan seafood market — indicating human-to-human transmission away from the market. A report written later that month concludes, “evidence so far indicates human transmission for 2019-nCoV. We are concerned that 2019-nCoV could have acquired the ability for efficient human transmission.”

                          Also on this day, the Wuhan Institute of Virology completed mapped the genome of the virus. The Chinese government would not announce that breakthrough for another week.

                          > This is an essential need in order to develop accurate tests for those suspected of having the virus.
                          .................................................. ...........
                          January 3: The Chinese government continued efforts to suppress all information about the virus: “China’s National Health Commission, the nation’s top health authority, ordered institutions not to publish any information related to the unknown disease, and ordered labs to transfer any samples they had to designated testing institutions, or to destroy them.”

                          Roughly one month after the first cases in Wuhan, the United States government is notified. Robert Redfield, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, gets initial reports about a new coronavirus from Chinese colleagues, according to Health and Human Services secretary Alex Azar. Azar, who helped manage the response at HHS to earlier SARS and anthrax outbreaks, told his chief of staff to make sure the National Security Council was informed.

                          Also on this day, the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission released another statement, repeating, “As of now, preliminary investigations have shown no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infections.

                          > Yet there is already evidence of both human-to-human transmission and medical staff that are infected.
                          .................................................. ........
                          January 4: While Chinese authorities continued to insist that the virus could not spread from one person to another, doctors outside that country weren’t so convinced. The head of the University of Hong Kong’s Centre for Infection, Ho Pak-leung, warned that “the city should implement the strictest possible monitoring system for a mystery new viral pneumonia that has infected dozens of people on the mainland, as it is highly possible that the illness is spreading from human to human.”

                          January 5: The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission put out a statement with updated numbers of cases but repeated, “preliminary investigations have shown no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infections.

                          > Denial continues
                          .................................................. .........
                          January 6: The New York Times publishes its first report about the virus, declaring that “59 people in the central city of Wuhan have been sickened by a pneumonia-like illness.” That first report included these comments:
                          Wang Linfa, an expert on emerging infectious diseases at the Duke-NUS Medical School in Singapore, said he was frustrated that scientists in China were not allowed to speak to him about the outbreak. Dr. Wang said, however, that he thought the virus was likely not spreading from humans to humans because health workers had not contracted the disease. “We should not go into panic mode,” he said.

                          Don’t get too mad at Wang Linfa; he was making that assessment based upon the inaccurate information Chinese government was telling the world.

                          Also that day, the CDC “issued a level 1 travel watch — the lowest of its three levels — for China’s outbreak. It said the cause and the transmission mode aren’t yet known, and it advised travelers to Wuhan to avoid living or dead animals, animal markets, and contact with sick people.”

                          Also that day, the CDC offered to send a team to China to assist with the investigation. The Chinese government declined, but a WHO team that included two Americans would visit February 16.

                          > CDC echoes the official line out of China
                          .................................................. ...................
                          January 8: Chinese medical authorities claim to have identified the virus. Those authorities claim and Western media continue to repeat, “there is no evidence that the new virus is readily spread by humans, which would make it particularly dangerous, and it has not been tied to any deaths.”

                          The official statement from the World Health Organization declares, “Preliminary identification of a novel virus in a short period of time is a notable achievement and demonstrates China’s increased capacity to manage new outbreaks . . . WHO does not recommend any specific measures for travelers. WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available.”
                          > So far WHO is taking what China says ...
                          .................................................. ...............
                          > Skipping through several days in the link:
                          January 14: Wuhan city health authorities release another statement declaring, “Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.” Wuhan doctors have known this was false since early December, from the first victim and his wife, who did not visit the market.

                          The World Health Organization echoes China’s assessment: “Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in Wuhan, China.

                          This is five or six weeks after the first evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan.

                          > We are now from one to two months after the start/appearance and still confusion and/or mis-information in play.
                          .................................................. ....................
                          January 15: Japan reported its first case of coronavirus. Japan’s Health Ministry said the patient had not visited any seafood markets in China, adding that “it is possible that the patient had close contact with an unknown patient with lung inflammation while in China.”

                          The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission begins to change its statements, now declaring, “Existing survey results show that clear human-to-human evidence has not been found, and the possibility of limited human-to-human transmission cannot be ruled out, but the risk of continued human-to-human transmission is low.” Recall Wuhan hospitals concluded human-to-human transmission was occurring three weeks earlier. A statement the next day backtracks on the possibility of human transmission, saying only, “Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.

                          > Truth begins to seep out ....
                          .................................................. ......................
                          > Again, skipping through several days on the link;


                          January 21: The CDC announced the first U.S. case of a the coronavirus in a Snohomish County, Wash., resident who returning from China six days earlier.

                          By this point, millions of people have left Wuhan, carrying the virus all around China and into other countries.

                          > This illustrates the first lesson to learn, something like COVID-19/Wuhan coronavirus, can appear and spread to pandemic thresholds before anyone could know what it specifically is, how to test for it, or employ preventative and containing measures.
                          .................................................. .................
                          January 22: WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus continued to praise China’s handling of the outbreak. “I was very impressed by the detail and depth of China’s presentation. I also appreciate the cooperation of China’s Minister of Health, who I have spoken with directly during the last few days and weeks. His leadership and the intervention of President Xi and Premier Li have been invaluable, and all the measures they have taken to respond to the outbreak.”

                          In the preceding days, a WHO delegation conducted a field visit to Wuhan. They concluded, “deployment of the new test kit nationally suggests that human-to-human transmission is taking place in Wuhan.” The delegation reports, “their counterparts agreed close attention should be paid to hand and respiratory hygiene, food safety and avoiding mass gatherings where possible.”

                          At a meeting of the WHO Emergency Committee, panel members express “divergent views on whether this event constitutes a “Public Health Emergency of International Concern’ or not. At that time, the advice was that the event did not constitute a PHEIC.”

                          President Trump, in an interview with CNBC at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, declared, “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.

                          January 23: Chinese authorities announce their first steps for a quarantine of Wuhan. By this point, millions have already visited the city and left it during the Lunar New Year celebrations. Singapore and Vietnam report their first cases, and by now an unknown but significant number of Chinese citizens have traveled abroad as asymptomatic, oblivious carriers.

                          > The pandemic is "out of the bag", and loose upon the world.
                          This link goes on for several more days of developments, but most should get the picture now, and can always click for more;

                          https://www.nationalreview.com/the-m...astating-lies/

                          Looking back through here, once a SARS like illness had been detected, that might have been the time and point for concern and quick action on the part of China and it's health officials. Having originated in China, initial responsibility was upon them to contain and warn the world, sooner rather than later.
                          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                          “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
                          Present Current Events are the Future's History

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Surrey View Post

                            Sweden seems to be doing OK.

                            Really?

                            You need to compare Sweden with countries of simmer charactersitics

                            And Sweden has MUCH higher death rates than the nearby Scadinavian countries.

                            Comparing Sweden to a city wit one of the highest population densities in the world, extensive use of public transportation, etc makes no sense.

                            So, let's see Sweden:

                            https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

                            Deaths per million in Sweden: 547

                            Deaths per million in Norway 47

                            Deaths per million in Finland 59

                            Deaths per million in Denmark 105



                            Not only that but the Swedish economy seems that it was hit almost as bad as the economies of the other countries. So, they have nothing to show for the strategy they used

                            https://www.politico.eu/article/swed...9-light-touch/

                            “The economic consequences of the pandemic will be considerable,” Sweden’s central bank said in a recent report as it forecast an economic contraction for Sweden of between 7 and 10 percentage points for this year and unemployment of between 9 and 10 percent. Last year the jobless figure was 6.8 percent. The European Commission's current forecast for the eurozone for 2020 is for an economic contraction of 7.75 percent.

                            Finally, I mentioned Sweden to show that has not developed herd immunity despite its relaxed measures. The death rate shows nothing about this issue. Most countries in Europe have now very low death rates, including the Scandinavian ones who actually have even lower rates than Sweden. Is this a sign that they have already developed immunity?
                            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Cambronnne View Post

                              Well if all the cool kids say the WHO is fine, then I will ignore the simple facts that they issued information they knew, or should have known to be wrong. (i.e. no human to human transmission)

                              I note you included japan int he group that didn't blame WHO.

                              “People think the World Health Organization should change its name,” Deputy Prime Minister Taro Aso said while speaking in the Japanese parliament on Wednesday, according to translators. “It shouldn’t be called the WHO. It should be renamed the CHO."

                              “Early on, if the WHO had not insisted to the world that China had no pneumonia epidemic, then everybody would have taken precautions,” he continued.


                              https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...h-organization
                              Yes I did. Taro Aso is Deputy Prime Minister. In Japan the head of government, and its offcial and unique voice on foreign policy is Prime Minister Shinzo Abe :

                              "“The cooperation of the WHO is essential in fighting the coronavirus,” Abe told reporters in Tokyo. “Japan is not thinking at all of cutting or ending its contributions. Now is the time to support the WHO,” he added."

                              https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ter-trump-cuts

                              Is there issue with political game played by Members States ? Certainly, but it has nothing to do with scientific work made by WHO. All CDC around work with scientific data, not political stance.


                              Sorry you have to keep repeating WHO's claim, but they had evidence what china was telling them was not true, but they repeated the lie from china just the same. One would think actual experts would know better.


                              The WHO had information that indicated human to human transmission. They pretended it away. Or did as the chinese instructed.
                              No, they did not had evidence and no one on Earth had by this time. You keep repeating this point but even Taiwanese CDC did not knew as they asked WHO for more information while dispatching scientists to China. China has most likely lied about real death toll but did not witheld or misinformed others countries about data gathered on the new, unknown virus. Once again aside from Trump administration, no government or agency/organization around the world has made such a claim.

                              China warned WHO by December 31st, 2019.

                              WHO stated by January 14, 2020 that “it is certainly possible that there is limited human-to-human transmission”.

                              WHO organized first expert meeting by January 17.

                              By January 22, WHO issued a statment including " More analysis of the epidemiological data is needed to understand the full extent
                              of human-to-human transmission. WHO stands ready to provide support to China to conduct further detailed analysis."

                              The same day : "The Director-General based the decision to reconvene on the “deeply concerning” continued increase in cases and evidence of human-to-human transmission outside China, in addition to the numbers outside China holding the potential for a much larger outbreak, even though they were still relatively small."

                              January 30 : WHO’s Regional Director for Africa sent out a guidance note to all countries in the Region emphasising the importance of readiness and early detection of cases."WHO recommends that to protect against the novel virus, people should practice good hand and respiratory hygiene and safe food practices. These include washing hands with soap and water or alcohol-based hand rub, covering the mouth and nose with a tissue or sleeve when coughing, avoiding close contact with anyone with flu-like symptoms, cooking food, especially meat, thoroughly and avoiding direct unprotected contact with live animals."

                              Emphasize is mine.

                              The same day WHO declared :"..., following the recommendations of the Emergency Committee, the WHO Director-General declared that the outbreak constitutes a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC)."

                              February 16 : "The WHO-China Joint Mission began its work. As part of the mission to assess the seriousness of this new disease; its transmission dynamics; and the nature and impact of China’s control measures, teams made field visits to Beijing, Guangdong, Sichuan and Wuhan.

                              The Mission consisted of 25 national and international experts from the People’s Republic of China, Germany, Japan, the Republic of Korea, Nigeria, the Russian Federation, Singapore, the United States of America and WHO, all selected after broad consultation to secure the best talent from a diversity of geographies and specialties. It was led by a Senior Advisor to the WHO Director-General, with the Head of Expert Panel of COVID-19 Response at the China National Health Commission (NHC) as co-lead. "

                              The timeline, as well US commitment from the very start by agencies or organization is well documented. It's only a matter of searching. Ignoring facts is an easy task. But trying to rewrite history in an History forum "a un petit parfum de Kamikaze"

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                                It looks like New York has pretty much achieved Herd Immunity.
                                Not even close. Reductions in transmission rates and mortality is due solely to restrictions imposed back in March, and only loosening in stages. Transmissions, hospitalizations, and mortality still raging among Hasidim, who have made a point of flouting restrictions since the beginning.

                                Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                                Most people who were going to get it have had it. Essentially that is the only way this virus is going to be dealt with in the long term. Lock downs were only ever going to be able to 'smooth the curve' and prevent health systems being overwhelmed. A high proportion of those who are vulnerable are going to have to get the virus eventually.
                                New study indicates that immunity from exposure lasts only a few weeks.

                                A large study from Spain showed that antibodies can disappear weeks after people have tested positive, causing some to question how possible it will be to attain herd immunity.

                                A study published in medical journal Lancet showed 14% of people who tested positive for antibodies no longer had antibodies weeks later.

                                “At present, herd immunity is difficult to achieve without accepting the collateral damage of many deaths in the susceptible population and overburdening of health systems,” the report reads. . . . .

                                "COVID-19 antibodies can vanish in weeks, study says. What’s it mean for herd immunity?," by Summer Lin, Miami Herald, 8 Jul 2020
                                I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

                                Comment

                                Latest Topics

                                Collapse

                                Working...
                                X