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  • What Defunding the Police Would Look Like


    This town of 170,000 replaced some cops with medics and mental health workers. It's worked for over 30 yearsAround 30 years ago, a town in Oregon retrofitted an old van, staffed it with young medics and mental health counselors and sent them out to respond to the kinds of 911 calls that wouldn't necessarily require police intervention.

    In the town of 172,000, they were the first responders for mental health crises, homelessness, substance abuse, threats of suicide -- the problems for which there are no easy fixes. The problems that, in the hands of police, have often turned violent.

    Today, the program, called CAHOOTS, has three vans, more than double the number of staffers and the attention of a country in crisis.

    CAHOOTS is already doing what police reform advocates say is necessary to fundamentally change the US criminal justice system -- pass off some responsibilities to unarmed civilians.
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/th...i=BBnb7Kz&ocid
    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
    - Benjamin Franklin

    The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

  • #2
    An interesting read. But, wouldn't this be highly dependent upon the social culture and nature of crime of each city and town taken individually? I can see this working in some locations, but I have some doubts about sending - at least unprotected - medics and mental health workers on 911 calls in places where you have high violent crime rates or excessive gang activity.

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    • #3
      Isn't it commonly accepted practice for medical or fire department respondants to await police presence before answering a call involving gunfire, even if they arrive ahead of the police?
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      • #4
        4444.jpg3d65bdc1bfd88ec2e840f9e01a9a1c2e.jpgAP_waco_1_kab_150521_16x9_992.jpg Great idea.
        Will the mental health professionals respond to gang shootouts and violent riots when people are being shot/beaten to death?

        Will they offer soothing words to rapists & murderers?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post
          CAHOOTS is already doing what police reform advocates say is necessary to fundamentally change the US criminal justice system -- pass off some responsibilities to unarmed civilians.
          https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/th...i=BBnb7Kz&ocid
          That might be specific to that particular town. Case in point: in response to multiple major corruption scandals, in 2013 Camden NJ's police department was disbanded and then reformed. New community policing policies were initiated, and overall crime has declined significantly. But the reason why Camden was such a hotspot for crime remains: proximity to the East Coast's main north-south route for the shipment of narcotics, I-95, aka "the cocaine highway." It appears that the gangs have left Camden and set up shop in nearby Trenton NJ and Chester PA, and other towns, as well. Improving police-community relations has shrunken the space in which the gangs can operate, so certainly Camden's police and residents have benefited greatly, but as long as the demand for narcotics remains, the problem will simply move on down the road, to the next vulnerable town. While there's no doubt that police give much cause for complaint, they're still not as dangerous as drug gangs operating with impunity.

          https://takethehighway.net/the-drug-...interstate-95/
          https://www.cityrating.com/crime-sta...y/trenton.html
          https://www.thrillist.com/travel/nat...hborhood-scout
          https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/di...rnd/index.html

          Originally posted by Herman Hum View Post
          Isn't it commonly accepted practice for medical or fire department respondants to await police presence before answering a call involving gunfire, even if they arrive ahead of the police?
          Depends on the jurisdiction in question. In NYC, social workers, EMTs, and other public sector workers have it in their contracts that NYPD escorts must be available on demand when conducting home visits and/or responding to emergency calls emanating from private residences.
          Last edited by slick_miester; 06 Jul 20, 12:10.
          I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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          • #6

            Shootings skyrocket more than 200% in NYC, just weeks after NYPD disbands 'anti-crime' unit
            'Many lives would have been saved ...'
            ...
            According to the New York Post, citing police statistics, there were three times as many shootings in the Big Apple during the last two weeks of June as during the same time period in 2019.

            There were 116 shooting incidents between June 15 and July 2 of this year, compared to just 38 during the same two-week period last year. In total, 157 New Yorkers were injured from gunfire, compared to just 57 last year during the same period.
            ...
            https://www.theblaze.com/news/nyc-sh...reaking%20News

            https://nypost.com/2020/07/04/shooti...ti-crime-unit/
            TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
            “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
            Present Current Events are the Future's History

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Freebird View Post
              Great idea.
              Will the mental health professionals respond to gang shootouts and violent riots when people are being shot/beaten to death?

              Will they offer soothing words to rapists & murderers?
              I'm not really sure why this is hard to understand. There's more to police calls than just violence. Obviously no, these health experts wouldn't be dealing with riots, violence, etc.

              It's a win/win because it would allow police to focus more resources towards violent crime, instead of being pulled away for things a health expert could handle. Like certain wellness checks for example, avoiding things like this from happening

              https://globalnews.ca/news/7095789/k...ainst%20Const.

              This was in Canada, but the point is the same.
              "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
              - Benjamin Franklin

              The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

              Comment


              • #8
                Total anarchy and self-policing, well armed small communities. WE already have a volunteer fire department in my small town, and we have someone selected to handle local disputes. We do just fine.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Freebird View Post
                  4444.jpg3d65bdc1bfd88ec2e840f9e01a9a1c2e.jpgAP_waco_1_kab_150521_16x9_992.jpg

                  Great idea.
                  Will the mental health professionals respond to gang shootouts and violent riots when people are being shot/beaten to death?

                  Will they offer soothing words to rapists & murderers?
                  No...they have a track record of waiting until the fireworks is over and then conducting their interviews in comfortable office surroundings. Mental health people run from the sounds of gunfire, not towards it. They were notorious in the Department of Corrections for never responding to an existing situation, even when surrounded by the CERT Team, and afterwards the counseled the criminals, never the officers.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

                    That might be specific to that particular town. Case in point: in response to multiple major corruption scandals, in 2013 Camden NJ's police department was disbanded and then reformed. New community policing policies were initiated, and overall crime has declined significantly. But the reason why Camden was such a hotspot for crime remains: proximity to the East Coast's main north-south route for the shipment of narcotics, I-95, aka "the cocaine highway." It appears that the gangs have left Camden and set up shop in nearby Trenton NJ and Chester PA, and other towns, as well. Improving police-community relations has shrunken the space in which the gangs can operate, so certainly Camden's police and residents have benefited greatly, but as long as the demand for narcotics remains, the problem will simply move on down the road, to the next vulnerable town. While there's no doubt that police give much cause for complaint, they're still not as dangerous as drug gangs operating with impunity.

                    https://takethehighway.net/the-drug-...interstate-95/
                    https://www.cityrating.com/crime-sta...y/trenton.html
                    https://www.thrillist.com/travel/nat...hborhood-scout
                    https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/di...rnd/index.html



                    Depends on the jurisdiction in question. In NYC, social workers, EMTs, and other public sector workers have it in their contracts that NYPD escorts must be available on demand when conducting home visits and/or responding to emergency calls emanating from private residences.
                    Who said they are as dangerous? The improvements made from disbanding their PD shouldn't be ignored. The goal of defunding or reforming is not to reduce crime, in my view. The point is to ensure that police can no longer violate basic civil liberties of the citizens they serve. It's so law-abiding citizens no longer have to live in fear of police officers. It's so no one has to fear for their life when coming into contact with an officer over something as harmless as a taillight being out. When something does go wrong, police are held accountable and justice is served. Most important, it's to improve community relations. So, the fact community relations have improved in Camden tells me the reform was warranted and worthwhile based on that fact alone.

                    Lowering crime is a separate issue requiring additional legislation and strategy. Yes, both can be tackled at the same time. For instance, what happens to these drug gangs when marijuana is legalized? What happens when feds are sent in to curtail trafficking of other narcotics? Two separate issues you're trying to lump into one.
                    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                    - Benjamin Franklin

                    The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                      Shootings skyrocket more than 200% in NYC, just weeks after NYPD disbands 'anti-crime' unit
                      'Many lives would have been saved ...'
                      ...
                      According to the New York Post, citing police statistics, there were three times as many shootings in the Big Apple during the last two weeks of June as during the same time period in 2019.

                      There were 116 shooting incidents between June 15 and July 2 of this year, compared to just 38 during the same two-week period last year. In total, 157 New Yorkers were injured from gunfire, compared to just 57 last year during the same period.
                      ...
                      https://www.theblaze.com/news/nyc-sh...reaking%20News

                      https://nypost.com/2020/07/04/shooti...ti-crime-unit/
                      Gun violence has skyrocketed across the country, including areas who have not changed their policing. Massive unemployment, civil unrest, and extreme tension might have something to do with it.
                      "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                      - Benjamin Franklin

                      The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Herman Hum View Post
                        Isn't it commonly accepted practice for medical or fire department respondants to await police presence before answering a call involving gunfire, even if they arrive ahead of the police?
                        "CAHOOTS" wasn't formed to answer those type of calls.
                        "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                        - Benjamin Franklin

                        The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

                          I'm not really sure why this is hard to understand. There's more to police calls than just violence. Obviously no, these health experts wouldn't be dealing with riots, violence, etc.

                          It's a win/win because it would allow police to focus more resources towards violent crime, instead of being pulled away for things a health expert could handle. Like certain wellness checks for example, avoiding things like this from happening

                          https://globalnews.ca/news/7095789/k...ainst%20Const.

                          This was in Canada, but the point is the same.
                          Thing is, police don't always know if the situation they are responding to is one of "violence". Routine traffic stops have on occasion resulted in officers being shot at, sometimes fatally. Responding to "domestic dispute" can become violent on occasion, same with motor vehicle accidents.

                          So while "other responders" might help in some situations, there are limits not readily obvious at times.

                          Many law enforcement agencies have some form of "citizens on patrol" which are a way of relieving of some other duties, such as to house/business checks when owners are away and have requested their property be visited on occasion, of first check on suspected abandoned vehicles. They are always looking for volunteers for this.

                          The George Floyd incident didn't start out a "violence call".

                          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                          “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
                          Present Current Events are the Future's History

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

                            Gun violence has skyrocketed across the country, including areas who have not changed their policing. Massive unemployment, civil unrest, and extreme tension might have something to do with it.
                            Only certain areas, mostly some urban have seen that "skyrocket". Like many other rural ones, mine hasn't seen this.
                            Now if you have some data/statistics to share ...
                            TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                            “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
                            Present Current Events are the Future's History

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

                              Who said they are as dangerous? The improvements made from disbanding their PD shouldn't be ignored. The goal of defunding or reforming is not to reduce crime, in my view. The point is to ensure that police can no longer violate basic civil liberties of the citizens they serve. It's so law-abiding citizens no longer have to live in fear of police officers. It's so no one has to fear for their life when coming into contact with an officer over something as harmless as a taillight being out. When something does go wrong, police are held accountable and justice is served. Most important, it's to improve community relations. So, the fact community relations have improved in Camden tells me the reform was warranted and worthwhile based on that fact alone.

                              Lowering crime is a separate issue requiring additional legislation and strategy. Yes, both can be tackled at the same time. For instance, what happens to these drug gangs when marijuana is legalized? What happens when feds are sent in to curtail trafficking of other narcotics? Two separate issues you're trying to lump into one.
                              Most of we citizens have a different view; we want to see crime reduced, not encouraged. We are more worried and concerned about our fellow citizens whom don't have ethical or civil standards of conduct to uphold, but seem to be just the opposite as seen in this example;
                              https://www.theblaze.com/news/suspec...t%20270%20days

                              https://abc13.com/convenience-store-...exxon/6251202/
                              TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                              “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
                              Present Current Events are the Future's History

                              Comment

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