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Colin Kaepernick denounces 4th of July

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  • Nichols
    replied
    Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

    So your argument is based on a hypothetical.
    It isn't an argument, it is based on facts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Urban hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

    The welfare state is a detriment, not a positive.
    You are dead on with that assessment.

    Leave a comment:


  • Metryll
    replied
    Originally posted by Nichols View Post

    Northern democrats opposed the expansion of slavery, not the same as opposing slavery.
    If one read 'opposing' as abolition, no 1860 Presidential candidate held such a stance, Lincoln included. But it's not really a point of importance since for most Southern States, opposing expansion was opposing slavery.

    Leave a comment:


  • pamak
    replied
    Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post


    So slavery doesn't warrant any sort of reconciliation?

    I never said, not once, that blacks today should receive reparations. In fact, I specifically said "former slaves" when discussing reparations so the nut jobs of the forum wouldn't get confused with who I was referring to.

    The point is, the US cannot be compared to Germany. Their reaction post-atrocity was entirely different than the US.
    Part of the reason the reaction was different in Germany was because the occupying powers did not give a choice to nostalgic Nazis to convince a significant part of the German population to accept a distorted version of the Nazi history.

    For example, when the allies found the concentration camps, they forced the population from the local cities nearby to visit the sites.



    When people were forced to face reality, it became impossible for Nazi sympathizers to make an effective case about their "lost cause" or about the living conditions of their Jewish (and other Eastern European) slaves. Sure they tried to deny facts, reduce the number of deaths and blame typhus for the outcomes in the extermination camps but they could never support such claims with a class of academic historians who could effectively spread their distortions within the lay population.

    By the way, which city was the one that did not celebrate 4th of July for decades after the end of the civil war? I assume if Sherman had enslaved its population for just a week and sold a few of the people's children to fund his campaign, they would have held a bigger grudge...

    Leave a comment:


  • TactiKill J.
    replied
    Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

    I don't recall millions of slaves jammed into gas chambers and efforts to exterminate all African-Blacks in the USA, from 1863 onward ???

    No former slaves remain alive today, and any reparations owed them would have come from the Southern "slave owner" states, that were broke after the ACW. If we are going to redo the past, then those African slaves should have been returned to Africa and the fellow Black tribes, and Muslims, that captured and sold them into slavery be the ones to pay reparations. Along with the Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, French, English, etc. whom bought the slaves and transported them to the Western hemisphere colonies.

    Meanwhile, my ancestors didn't arrive in this country until early 20th century so how am I obligated to "pay for the sins of former citizens"?

    Also, I have two sons whom, if "Ancestry.com" is correct, are one-quarter Black, so do they get some of these reparations?

    Some of my ancestors are Armenian, and we were subject to genocide by the Turks back then. You know, the genocide that Obama wouldn't admit happened. So am I due some reparations from Turkey since they haven't fully settled for their crimes a century ago?


    So slavery doesn't warrant any sort of reconciliation?

    I never said, not once, that blacks today should receive reparations. In fact, I specifically said "former slaves" when discussing reparations so the nut jobs of the forum wouldn't get confused with who I was referring to.

    The point is, the US cannot be compared to Germany. Their reaction post-atrocity was entirely different than the US.

    Leave a comment:


  • G David Bock
    replied
    Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

    So your argument is based on a hypothetical. You admit we didn't do what Germany did, but you still want to be treated in the same vain, again having not earned it. That's not how things work. You're right, had former slaves be given reparations, full freedom, no segregation and the government took an active stance against racism, then yes the US would have earned forgiveness. Just as Germany has. But, unfortunately that's not reality, not what happened, so you can't be given credit based on hypotheticals.
    I don't recall millions of slaves jammed into gas chambers and efforts to exterminate all African-Blacks in the USA, from 1863 onward ???

    No former slaves remain alive today, and any reparations owed them would have come from the Southern "slave owner" states, that were broke after the ACW. If we are going to redo the past, then those African slaves should have been returned to Africa and the fellow Black tribes, and Muslims, that captured and sold them into slavery be the ones to pay reparations. Along with the Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, French, English, etc. whom bought the slaves and transported them to the Western hemisphere colonies.

    Meanwhile, my ancestors didn't arrive in this country until early 20th century so how am I obligated to "pay for the sins of former citizens"?

    Also, I have two sons whom, if "Ancestry.com" is correct, are one-quarter Black, so do they get some of these reparations?

    Some of my ancestors are Armenian, and we were subject to genocide by the Turks back then. You know, the genocide that Obama wouldn't admit happened. So am I due some reparations from Turkey since they haven't fully settled for their crimes a century ago?

    Leave a comment:


  • TactiKill J.
    replied
    We can revisit this conversation once racist monuments that were built during the civil rights era have been removed, confederate flags that represent the fight to maintain slavery are taken down and police reform is made. At that point we can begin to compare ourselves to Germany, but as is it's not an apples to apples comparison as we still lag behind their society.

    Leave a comment:


  • TactiKill J.
    replied
    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post

    Excellent points, I would add that affirmative action programs have educated millions of minorities, in some cases generations of families have been supported by welfare payments, subsidized housing and free health care.
    Maybe we can deduct the trillions of dollars from the "atonement fees"?
    The welfare state is a detriment, not a positive.

    Leave a comment:


  • TactiKill J.
    replied
    Originally posted by Nichols View Post

    Atonement? How many people gave thier lives in the Civil War to abolish slavery?

    The difference between the ACW and WW II is that we didn't disband the democrats like we did the nazis.

    Had we used the same model on the democrats that we did used on the nazis, there wouldn't have been the KKK, Jim Crowe, and all the other racist activities that the democrats initiated.
    So your argument is based on a hypothetical. You admit we didn't do what Germany did, but you still want to be treated in the same vain, again having not earned it. That's not how things work. You're right, had former slaves be given reparations, full freedom, no segregation and the government took an active stance against racism, then yes the US would have earned forgiveness. Just as Germany has. But, unfortunately that's not reality, not what happened, so you can't be given credit based on hypotheticals.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nichols
    replied
    Originally posted by Metryll View Post


    Which doesn't make sense since Democrats, like Union was split by sectionalism. Southern Democrats did support slavery but not their northern counter part. Democrats survived the split but not the Whigh party.

    Moreover today KKK members do rarely identify themselves as Dems...
    Northern democrats opposed the expansion of slavery, not the same as opposing slavery.

    Leave a comment:


  • Massena
    replied
    Originally posted by Nichols View Post

    Are we supposed modern Germans accountable for hitler?


    If any follow his ideology the answer is yes. Are there Nazis in modern Germany? The answer is undoubtedly yes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Metryll
    replied
    Originally posted by Nichols View Post

    Atonement? How many people gave thier lives in the Civil War to abolish slavery?

    The difference between the ACW and WW II is that we didn't disband the democrats like we did the nazis.

    Had we used the same model on the democrats that we did used on the nazis, there wouldn't have been the KKK, Jim Crowe, and all the other racist activities that the democrats initiated.

    Which doesn't make sense since Democrats, like Union was split by sectionalism. Southern Democrats did support slavery but not their northern counter part. Democrats survived the split but not the Whigh party.

    Moreover today KKK members do rarely identify themselves as Dems...

    Leave a comment:


  • Urban hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by Nichols View Post

    Atonement? How many people gave thier lives in the Civil War to abolish slavery?

    The difference between the ACW and WW II is that we didn't disband the democrats like we did the nazis.

    Had we used the same model on the democrats that we did used on the nazis, there wouldn't have been the KKK, Jim Crowe, and all the other racist activities that the democrats initiated.
    Excellent points, I would add that affirmative action programs have educated millions of minorities, in some cases generations of families have been supported by welfare payments, subsidized housing and free health care.
    Maybe we can deduct the trillions of dollars from the "atonement fees"?

    Leave a comment:


  • Nichols
    replied
    Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post
    Meanwhile in the US, we have quite the opposite on all fronts. I'm a firm believer in things being earned and not given. The US has not earned any atonement for its past. We have to fight tooth and nail, to this day, for things that were a no-brainer in Germany.
    Atonement? How many people gave thier lives in the Civil War to abolish slavery?

    The difference between the ACW and WW II is that we didn't disband the democrats like we did the nazis.

    Had we used the same model on the democrats that we did used on the nazis, there wouldn't have been the KKK, Jim Crowe, and all the other racist activities that the democrats initiated.

    Leave a comment:


  • Metryll
    replied
    Originally posted by Rutger View Post

    Bit of nitpicking, ain't it? Independence Day, congrats.

    The issue raised (what is there to celebrate for blacks on the 4th of july, knowing that their freedom was denied for another 90 years) is rather more relevant and my question so far has been answered with very obvious deflection, apologism, denial of facts and downplaying, but not a sinhgle straight answer.
    The answer is obvious: they went from slavery under British rule to slavery under independent American rule.
    One should be really careful when dealing about modern situation by use of history. 4th July in USA is like 14th July in France : it mark an event in a timeline which started a noticeable change in course of history.

    USA by 1776 was quite different than today. The power balance between States and Federal government was much more in favor of States than today. And slavery was closely tied with States. Some were anti slavery, others were pro. There was no America as we see it today. In a way similar to modern Germany vs 1870 Prussian Imperial Germany.

    If you don't have read McPherson "Battle Cry Freedom" I can only suggest you to have a look. McPherson spent several chapters to examine political situation before the war and how slavery shaped relations between States and Union as a whole in leadings decades before the Civil War.

    Moreover if one argues about history, why thake only the first 90 years ? Why Lincoln, Civil War, Martin Luther King, Kennedy (John and Robert), Lyndon Johnson are not to be taken into account or there role ignored ? And more broadly why white people who fougth, and sometime lost their lives against slavery and later racism and discrimination are to be ignored as well ?

    Did 4th of July freed slaves ? No. But it started the chain of events that came from slavery to Civil Right Act in 1965. Is today situation perfect ? No. But it is surely better than slavery that existed by 1776.





    Leave a comment:

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