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  • Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

    Nothing except the school confirming one of their fans made racist comments. Yes, the narrator is biased against racism. What issue do you have with that? If a waiter says 'I should have been George Floyd', that's a little bit outside the realm of just having a bad day.

    Face the truth. This is what the majority of black people have to go through in America.
    A country stolen from natives blah blah blah
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by slick_miester View Post

      Well . . . . to be technical, the Founding Fathers did, among the multitude of complaints lodged by them against George III, mentioned that His Majesty's government had agitated the slaves to take up arms against their masters.



      Prior to 1865, "domestic insurrection" was the legal term for slave rebellion.
      And it should be noted that in the original draft of the Declaration, slavery was to be abolished in the colonies. Georgia and the Carolinas objected and threatened to vote against independence if that section was kept in the document.
      We are not now that strength which in old days
      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Andy H View Post
        As to the descendants, your remark is somewhat strange, as if those descendants have an inherent immunity from being racists. Were 6/7 generations on from the end of the ACW and
        Are we supposed modern Germans accountable for hitler?



        "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Nichols View Post

          Are we supposed modern Germans accountable for hitler?


          Technically the answer to that is yes, since Germany is still under certain restrictions as a result of ww2.

          However, there's a huge difference between Americans and Germans. Modern Germans didn't have problems taking down Nazi flags and monuments. They paid Jewish people reparations. The government does everything it can to fight against Neo Nazi's. The police do everything they can to protect Jews. Overall their society was reshaped to be one that's accepting of Jews and other cultures. They have put in the work necessary to earn the world's forgiveness.

          Meanwhile in the US, we have quite the opposite on all fronts. I'm a firm believer in things being earned and not given. The US has not earned any atonement for its past. We have to fight tooth and nail, to this day, for things that were a no-brainer in Germany.
          "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
          - Benjamin Franklin

          The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Rutger View Post

            Bit of nitpicking, ain't it? Independence Day, congrats.

            The issue raised (what is there to celebrate for blacks on the 4th of july, knowing that their freedom was denied for another 90 years) is rather more relevant and my question so far has been answered with very obvious deflection, apologism, denial of facts and downplaying, but not a sinhgle straight answer.
            The answer is obvious: they went from slavery under British rule to slavery under independent American rule.
            One should be really careful when dealing about modern situation by use of history. 4th July in USA is like 14th July in France : it mark an event in a timeline which started a noticeable change in course of history.

            USA by 1776 was quite different than today. The power balance between States and Federal government was much more in favor of States than today. And slavery was closely tied with States. Some were anti slavery, others were pro. There was no America as we see it today. In a way similar to modern Germany vs 1870 Prussian Imperial Germany.

            If you don't have read McPherson "Battle Cry Freedom" I can only suggest you to have a look. McPherson spent several chapters to examine political situation before the war and how slavery shaped relations between States and Union as a whole in leadings decades before the Civil War.

            Moreover if one argues about history, why thake only the first 90 years ? Why Lincoln, Civil War, Martin Luther King, Kennedy (John and Robert), Lyndon Johnson are not to be taken into account or there role ignored ? And more broadly why white people who fougth, and sometime lost their lives against slavery and later racism and discrimination are to be ignored as well ?

            Did 4th of July freed slaves ? No. But it started the chain of events that came from slavery to Civil Right Act in 1965. Is today situation perfect ? No. But it is surely better than slavery that existed by 1776.





            Comment


            • Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post
              Meanwhile in the US, we have quite the opposite on all fronts. I'm a firm believer in things being earned and not given. The US has not earned any atonement for its past. We have to fight tooth and nail, to this day, for things that were a no-brainer in Germany.
              Atonement? How many people gave thier lives in the Civil War to abolish slavery?

              The difference between the ACW and WW II is that we didn't disband the democrats like we did the nazis.

              Had we used the same model on the democrats that we did used on the nazis, there wouldn't have been the KKK, Jim Crowe, and all the other racist activities that the democrats initiated.
              "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Nichols View Post

                Atonement? How many people gave thier lives in the Civil War to abolish slavery?

                The difference between the ACW and WW II is that we didn't disband the democrats like we did the nazis.

                Had we used the same model on the democrats that we did used on the nazis, there wouldn't have been the KKK, Jim Crowe, and all the other racist activities that the democrats initiated.
                Excellent points, I would add that affirmative action programs have educated millions of minorities, in some cases generations of families have been supported by welfare payments, subsidized housing and free health care.
                Maybe we can deduct the trillions of dollars from the "atonement fees"?
                Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Nichols View Post

                  Atonement? How many people gave thier lives in the Civil War to abolish slavery?

                  The difference between the ACW and WW II is that we didn't disband the democrats like we did the nazis.

                  Had we used the same model on the democrats that we did used on the nazis, there wouldn't have been the KKK, Jim Crowe, and all the other racist activities that the democrats initiated.

                  Which doesn't make sense since Democrats, like Union was split by sectionalism. Southern Democrats did support slavery but not their northern counter part. Democrats survived the split but not the Whigh party.

                  Moreover today KKK members do rarely identify themselves as Dems...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Nichols View Post

                    Are we supposed modern Germans accountable for hitler?


                    If any follow his ideology the answer is yes. Are there Nazis in modern Germany? The answer is undoubtedly yes.
                    We are not now that strength which in old days
                    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Metryll View Post


                      Which doesn't make sense since Democrats, like Union was split by sectionalism. Southern Democrats did support slavery but not their northern counter part. Democrats survived the split but not the Whigh party.

                      Moreover today KKK members do rarely identify themselves as Dems...
                      Northern democrats opposed the expansion of slavery, not the same as opposing slavery.
                      "I don't discuss sitting presidents," Mattis tells NPR in an interview. "I believe that you owe a period of quiet."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Nichols View Post

                        Atonement? How many people gave thier lives in the Civil War to abolish slavery?

                        The difference between the ACW and WW II is that we didn't disband the democrats like we did the nazis.

                        Had we used the same model on the democrats that we did used on the nazis, there wouldn't have been the KKK, Jim Crowe, and all the other racist activities that the democrats initiated.
                        So your argument is based on a hypothetical. You admit we didn't do what Germany did, but you still want to be treated in the same vain, again having not earned it. That's not how things work. You're right, had former slaves be given reparations, full freedom, no segregation and the government took an active stance against racism, then yes the US would have earned forgiveness. Just as Germany has. But, unfortunately that's not reality, not what happened, so you can't be given credit based on hypotheticals.
                        "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                        - Benjamin Franklin

                        The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post

                          Excellent points, I would add that affirmative action programs have educated millions of minorities, in some cases generations of families have been supported by welfare payments, subsidized housing and free health care.
                          Maybe we can deduct the trillions of dollars from the "atonement fees"?
                          The welfare state is a detriment, not a positive.
                          "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                          - Benjamin Franklin

                          The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                          Comment


                          • We can revisit this conversation once racist monuments that were built during the civil rights era have been removed, confederate flags that represent the fight to maintain slavery are taken down and police reform is made. At that point we can begin to compare ourselves to Germany, but as is it's not an apples to apples comparison as we still lag behind their society.
                            "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                            - Benjamin Franklin

                            The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by TactiKill J. View Post

                              So your argument is based on a hypothetical. You admit we didn't do what Germany did, but you still want to be treated in the same vain, again having not earned it. That's not how things work. You're right, had former slaves be given reparations, full freedom, no segregation and the government took an active stance against racism, then yes the US would have earned forgiveness. Just as Germany has. But, unfortunately that's not reality, not what happened, so you can't be given credit based on hypotheticals.
                              I don't recall millions of slaves jammed into gas chambers and efforts to exterminate all African-Blacks in the USA, from 1863 onward ???

                              No former slaves remain alive today, and any reparations owed them would have come from the Southern "slave owner" states, that were broke after the ACW. If we are going to redo the past, then those African slaves should have been returned to Africa and the fellow Black tribes, and Muslims, that captured and sold them into slavery be the ones to pay reparations. Along with the Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, French, English, etc. whom bought the slaves and transported them to the Western hemisphere colonies.

                              Meanwhile, my ancestors didn't arrive in this country until early 20th century so how am I obligated to "pay for the sins of former citizens"?

                              Also, I have two sons whom, if "Ancestry.com" is correct, are one-quarter Black, so do they get some of these reparations?

                              Some of my ancestors are Armenian, and we were subject to genocide by the Turks back then. You know, the genocide that Obama wouldn't admit happened. So am I due some reparations from Turkey since they haven't fully settled for their crimes a century ago?

                              TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                              “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

                                I don't recall millions of slaves jammed into gas chambers and efforts to exterminate all African-Blacks in the USA, from 1863 onward ???

                                No former slaves remain alive today, and any reparations owed them would have come from the Southern "slave owner" states, that were broke after the ACW. If we are going to redo the past, then those African slaves should have been returned to Africa and the fellow Black tribes, and Muslims, that captured and sold them into slavery be the ones to pay reparations. Along with the Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, French, English, etc. whom bought the slaves and transported them to the Western hemisphere colonies.

                                Meanwhile, my ancestors didn't arrive in this country until early 20th century so how am I obligated to "pay for the sins of former citizens"?

                                Also, I have two sons whom, if "Ancestry.com" is correct, are one-quarter Black, so do they get some of these reparations?

                                Some of my ancestors are Armenian, and we were subject to genocide by the Turks back then. You know, the genocide that Obama wouldn't admit happened. So am I due some reparations from Turkey since they haven't fully settled for their crimes a century ago?


                                So slavery doesn't warrant any sort of reconciliation?

                                I never said, not once, that blacks today should receive reparations. In fact, I specifically said "former slaves" when discussing reparations so the nut jobs of the forum wouldn't get confused with who I was referring to.

                                The point is, the US cannot be compared to Germany. Their reaction post-atrocity was entirely different than the US.
                                "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                                - Benjamin Franklin

                                The new right wing: hate Muslims, preaches tolerance for Nazis.

                                Comment

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