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  • Andy H
    replied
    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post

    My neighbors wife goes to Prague every January to visit her daughter and grandchildren, always returns in March, this year she was stuck there until June because the borders were closed, and the airlines were grounded.
    Hi Urban hermit

    Obviously she wasn't able to get on a repatriation flight from the above, though the Czech Rep was very strict about its borders staying closed. I think they wanted them closed for 2yrs back in Mar/Apr, not sure if they've renounced that idea!

    Regards

    Andy H

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  • Urban hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by Andy H View Post

    Hi Urban hermit

    The EU closed its external borders but was very reticent about closing down internal borders, especially those within the Schengen zone. The UK enforced stronger controls on those coming from China early on but with more data now available, the virus was actually coming in via France, Italy and Spain, than from China.

    Regards

    Andy H
    My neighbors wife goes to Prague every January to visit her daughter and grandchildren, always returns in March, this year she was stuck there until June because the borders were closed, and the airlines were grounded.

    Leave a comment:


  • Andy H
    replied
    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
    Didn't most of the countries in Europe close down borders? We didn't shut down our state borders, also, each governor can set their own rules, and mayors can also issue policies. Our mayor just issued a mandatory order for masks to be used on Friday.
    Hi Urban hermit

    The EU closed its external borders but was very reticent about closing down internal borders, especially those within the Schengen zone. The UK enforced stronger controls on those coming from China early on but with more data now available, the virus was actually coming in via France, Italy and Spain, than from China.

    Regards

    Andy H

    Leave a comment:


  • Snowygerry
    replied
    Originally posted by Vaeltaja View Post
    But was it a lockdown in the sense of not going outside? No. Outdoor activities which didn't involve too many people were just fine (so jogging, cycling, trekking, etc.).
    It had similar rules as external borders - that is to say people with valid reason (job, etc.) could pass through it but going 'just because' was not allowed
    Many other aspects were also found out to be very hard to do within the constraints of the constitution and the laws, which led to government with the approval of the parliament declaring the state of emergency.

    Accounting for institutional and geographical differences, that's remarkably similar to what happened here, it was called 'Lockdown light'.

    All this resulted in between 70-80 % of the population supporting and voluntarily implementing these measures, at the high point in April, which makes a big difference with the US imho, where it always seems to be 50/50.
    Last edited by Snowygerry; 05 Jul 20, 01:56.

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  • Vaeltaja
    replied
    Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
    Didn't most of the countries in Europe close down borders? We didn't shut down our state borders, also, each governor can set their own rules, and mayors can also issue policies. Our mayor just issued a mandatory order for masks to be used on Friday.

    Most did, though measures taken varied a lot.

    Can't really say much apart from what happened in Finland. Many other aspects were also found out to be very hard to do within the constraints of the constitution and the laws, which led to government with the approval of the parliament declaring the state of emergency.

    It was found out that closing the borders was much more difficult especially since per constitution we can not prevent Finnish citizen from leaving or returning. But they were shut down to the extent they could be. All persons arriving were instructed to be quarantined for two weeks, at many entry locations there were also provisions made for persons without accommodations to be housed in 'quarantine hotel' of sorts for two weeks or if symptomatic with flu like disease, until test results. We also closed our capital region because it was at the time a hotspot. It had similar rules as external borders - that is to say people with valid reason (job, etc.) could pass through it but going 'just because' was not allowed

    On a positive test result the person was isolated (he was forbidden from having any contact to other people) and all those with whom the person had had a reasonable contact were told to quarantine. Breach of quarantine or isolation is a criminal offense with a maximum of three months prison sentence (so i guess a misdemeanor). Deliberately spreading the disease however would be a crime from which there could be prison sentences up to 4 years.

    Masks were not ordered to be used and have not really used that widely. People rely on social distancing (which works too if used properly). Masks were recommended only for public transit and shopping (if done during normal hours). Elderly or otherwise vulnerable people had their own 'turns' in grocery shops - usually first few and last few hours were reserved. Grocery shops vastly increased up pick-and-go and home delivery methods. Many grocery stores increased their hours. Apothecaries increased home deliveries. Many taxi or similar services started running "deliveries on call" system where you could sent them a shopping list (something like up to 50 €) and they would bring to your door it in a hour or two.

    All work that could be done remotely was to be done so. Many companies either used temporarily layoffs with workers or then made an agreement with the workers that prevented temporary layoffs but instead moved the holidays so that workplaces were mostly closed anyway. Schools were turned into remote learning apart from the pre-school and grades 1 to 3 which were open for those kids whose parents either worked at 'critical branch' (healthcare or similar) or could not otherwise be home (however all were recommended to keep kids home if at all possible). Universities went into full remote learning and will largely stay that way until Christmas if i understood correctly. Bars, restaurants, clubs etc. were closed and gathering sizes were greatly limited - restaurants could still make food but could not serve it so home deliveries picked up there too. Cruiseferries would only take trucks (& their drivers) and 'returning citizens'.

    But was it a lockdown in the sense of not going outside? No. Outdoor activities which didn't involve too many people were just fine (so jogging, cycling, trekking, etc.).

    EDIT: Also, not everything happened like they do in Strömsö (Finnish saying... referring to a TV lifestyle program of the same name where every project, regardless of how difficult, succeeds). So few bumps along the way. Like no one being over at airport to screen the arrivals early on etc.
    Last edited by Vaeltaja; 05 Jul 20, 01:05.

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  • Urban hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by Judith View Post

    Well sounds like a complete chaos. This is a leadership issue. What you wrote made the situation a lot clearer. While one may at first think, the people living in california are simply uneducated idiots, they are just people, idiots. The difference is leadership. You know, germany is a country full of idiots too, but when Merkel held that speech at the beginning of the crisis, telling us that estimates said that 70% will get infected with that virus and that we have to stay inside to lower personal contacts to slow down the spread so we can buy some time necessary to get hospitals prepared for the worst, people understood that its serious. She was pretty straight forward and honest about what this pandemic will mean to our lives and that it will be a challange for the germans to get through this together. All this while your president was joking around about how miraculously covid will disappear until april. His uneducated stupidity combined with absolute lack of leadership ability really sunk the ship. Its not about bashing someone just because i am left (surprise, i am not) or crap like that, its just obvious. You have to get rid of this kind of incompetence. It will be very expensive on a personal level if this madness continues for 4 more years.
    The president, any president doesn't have the authority to shutdown states borders or isolate cities in the US without declaring martial law. Hence the name of our nation the United States of America.
    The Covid-19 pandemic like every other pandemic has become politicized in the USA, it's nothing new. There was controversy when Dr. Salk produced the first polio vaccine, there is controversy every year over the influenza vaccine.

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  • Judith
    replied
    Originally posted by Salinator View Post

    Our problems have nothing to do with Administration and everything to do with the people, despite what the TDSers are telling you. Lockdown and safety standards and guidelines are set by States and Counties.The recent rises are all traced back to primarily three things, lots of people not following guidelines such as social distancing and general hygiene, States and counties making the bonehead move of reopening parks and beaches right before the the major three days Memorial Weekend Holiday - allowing them to be swamped by people that was tired of being cooped up at home and having to social distance and wearing masls, and the damn BLM and AntiFa protests/riots/looting. Most law enforcement agencies wouldn't enforce masks, social distancing, and the gatherings of 5/10 people.

    The San Francisco Bay Area is the most liberal place in the entire nation, and no matter how one might try to deflect it, those jackasses packed shoulder to shoulder, not wearing masks while yelling and screaming at the top of their lungs while harassing people and destroying property were not Trump supporters. Neither were the ones down in Los Angeles.

    I have to drive through the park and beach everyday. All the authorities did was closed the parking lots, but did not enforce any of the guidelines. There were beer keg parties at the beach. And then once the parks and beaches were reopened, the parking lots were jammed full of cars again. There were so many people packed on the beach that I could not see sand, only people and the waves.

    Then the "essential business qualifications were all skewed. With all the businesses that were forced to close, all that did was to concentrate the people into primarily Target, Walmart, Lowe's, and Home Depot. Clothing and shoes stores were forced to close, so if you need any of those, you had to fight the crowd at Target and Walmart. Lumber yards, tool stores, and paint stores had to close, so all those idled people with nothing to do packed themselves into Lowe's and Home Deport to get things for there NON ESSENTIAL home improvement projects such as putting up a new vanity in the restroom or getting a new door knob to replace a still perfectly functioning one. The nursery and seed stores had to close, so grandma goes to once again Lowe's or Home Depot for the pre-potted plants. Smoke shops had to close, so more people at drug or convenience stores endangering old people getting their prescriptions and people buying slurpies at 7-Eleven. Used car lots had to close, but not new car dealerships, which conveniently laid off all the people that clean cars so customers drive off with dirty cars. Goodwill stores had to close, depriving the poor of an important outlet for their shortage of funds. They chained up the tennis courts, closed off the baseball fields and golf courses, but basketball courts were left alone because that would be discriminating against the "inner city" folks..............and they still can't figure out if making Black people wear masks at shops OR refusing service because they won't wear a mask is the actual discrimination because it has already happened and reported zealously the press both ways on separate occasions as discrimination.
    Well sounds like a complete chaos. This is a leadership issue. What you wrote made the situation a lot clearer. While one may at first think, the people living in california are simply uneducated idiots, they are just people, idiots. The difference is leadership. You know, germany is a country full of idiots too, but when Merkel held that speech at the beginning of the crisis, telling us that estimates said that 70% will get infected with that virus and that we have to stay inside to lower personal contacts to slow down the spread so we can buy some time necessary to get hospitals prepared for the worst, people understood that its serious. She was pretty straight forward and honest about what this pandemic will mean to our lives and that it will be a challange for the germans to get through this together. All this while your president was joking around about how miraculously covid will disappear until april. His uneducated stupidity combined with absolute lack of leadership ability really sunk the ship. Its not about bashing someone just because i am left (surprise, i am not) or crap like that, its just obvious. You have to get rid of this kind of incompetence. It will be very expensive on a personal level if this madness continues for 4 more years.

    Trung Si i am not here to tell you what to do, i am here because i can learn and understand. Sometimes i feel the need to state my opinion and thereby add to the discussion or give you an external point of view. Its always up to you to take it or leave it.
    When i say "you have to get rid of this kind of incompetence" i, in my opinion, state the obvious. Its like telling a junkie to stop fixing heroine. It may be senseless but it needs to be said. Take it like a man or a junkie, its up to you.

    Urban hermit since germany is a federal republic, its quite comparable to the US, just 4 times smaller. We have 16 states and those operated with independend measures to covid. One state locked down a week sooner, the other one made different rules to whats allowed and whats not. They all sat together and debated what the proper way to tackle this virus would be. All under the guidelines of the federal government and the RKI, the primary german disease institute. The states borders have been open all the time, but police would enforce the states decisions. Just like in your case mayors are also free to issue additional policies. The main difference is consensus. There was a broad consensus politically to safe lifes over money and there was a huge acceptance to stay safe in the population.
    On a european level, there wasnt a travel restriction, so you could travel, if it was absolutely necessary. There was just a warning not to travel, especially to hard hit regions like Italy. And as it was in everyones interest, those who could stayed at home.
    Last edited by Judith; 05 Jul 20, 01:26.

    Leave a comment:


  • Urban hermit
    replied
    Didn't most of the countries in Europe close down borders? We didn't shut down our state borders, also, each governor can set their own rules, and mayors can also issue policies. Our mayor just issued a mandatory order for masks to be used on Friday.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trung Si
    replied
    Originally posted by Salinator View Post

    Our problems have nothing to do with Administration and everything to do with the people, despite what the TDSers are telling you. Lockdown and safety standards and guidelines are set by States and Counties.The recent rises are all traced back to primarily three things, lots of people not following guidelines such as social distancing and general hygiene, States and counties making the bonehead move of reopening parks and beaches right before the the major three days Memorial Weekend Holiday - allowing them to be swamped by people that was tired of being cooped up at home and having to social distance and wearing masls, and the damn BLM and AntiFa protests/riots/looting. Most law enforcement agencies wouldn't enforce masks, social distancing, and the gatherings of 5/10 people.

    The San Francisco Bay Area is the most liberal place in the entire nation, and no matter how one might try to deflect it, those jackasses packed shoulder to shoulder, not wearing masks while yelling and screaming at the top of their lungs while harassing people and destroying property were not Trump supporters. Neither were the ones down in Los Angeles.

    I have to drive through the park and beach everyday. All the authorities did was closed the parking lots, but did not enforce any of the guidelines. There were beer keg parties at the beach. And then once the parks and beaches were reopened, the parking lots were jammed full of cars again. There were so many people packed on the beach that I could not see sand, only people and the waves.

    Then the "essential business qualifications were all skewed. With all the businesses that were forced to close, all that did was to concentrate the people into primarily Target, Walmart, Lowe's, and Home Depot. Clothing and shoes stores were forced to close, so if you need any of those, you had to fight the crowd at Target and Walmart. Lumber yards, tool stores, and paint stores had to close, so all those idled people with nothing to do packed themselves into Lowe's and Home Deport to get things for there NON ESSENTIAL home improvement projects such as putting up a new vanity in the restroom or getting a new door knob to replace a still perfectly functioning one. The nursery and seed stores had to close, so grandma goes to once again Lowe's or Home Depot for the pre-potted plants. Smoke shops had to close, so more people at drug or convenience stores endangering old people getting their prescriptions and people buying slurpies at 7-Eleven. Used car lots had to close, but not new car dealerships, which conveniently laid off all the people that clean cars so customers drive off with dirty cars. Goodwill stores had to close, depriving the poor of an important outlet for their shortage of funds. They chained up the tennis courts, closed off the baseball fields and golf courses, but basketball courts were left alone because that would be discriminating against the "inner city" folks..............and they still can't figure out if making Black people wear masks at shops OR refusing service because they won't wear a mask is the actual discrimination because it has already happened and reported zealously the press both ways on separate occasions as discrimination.
    It's best not to take advise from, or to get upset over the opinions of people that do not live here, they just think that they know what they are talking about, it's best to ignore them, and like some where the ignore list doesn't work, ignore them the old fashioned way!

    Leave a comment:


  • Salinator
    replied
    Originally posted by Judith View Post

    So what does lockdown mean in the bay area?

    I think it helped, that leadership was coordinating appropriate response on a EU wide level. More European countries took covid seriously than states in the US though. Having a scientist in Merkel did help too.

    As long as this crisis isnt approached on a federal level in the US with all the understanding necessary, covid will drag on infinitly.

    As it looks right now it will take 100k more dead americans until a Biden government steps in to stop the chaos in november. It wont just go away miraculously.

    Its painful to watch to be honest, knowing that this catastrophy cost way too many lifes already.
    Our problems have nothing to do with Administration and everything to do with the people, despite what the TDSers are telling you. Lockdown and safety standards and guidelines are set by States and Counties.The recent rises are all traced back to primarily three things, lots of people not following guidelines such as social distancing and general hygiene, States and counties making the bonehead move of reopening parks and beaches right before the the major three days Memorial Weekend Holiday - allowing them to be swamped by people that was tired of being cooped up at home and having to social distance and wearing masls, and the damn BLM and AntiFa protests/riots/looting. Most law enforcement agencies wouldn't enforce masks, social distancing, and the gatherings of 5/10 people.

    The San Francisco Bay Area is the most liberal place in the entire nation, and no matter how one might try to deflect it, those jackasses packed shoulder to shoulder, not wearing masks while yelling and screaming at the top of their lungs while harassing people and destroying property were not Trump supporters. Neither were the ones down in Los Angeles.

    I have to drive through the park and beach everyday. All the authorities did was closed the parking lots, but did not enforce any of the guidelines. There were beer keg parties at the beach. And then once the parks and beaches were reopened, the parking lots were jammed full of cars again. There were so many people packed on the beach that I could not see sand, only people and the waves.

    Then the "essential business qualifications were all skewed. With all the businesses that were forced to close, all that did was to concentrate the people into primarily Target, Walmart, Lowe's, and Home Depot. Clothing and shoes stores were forced to close, so if you need any of those, you had to fight the crowd at Target and Walmart. Lumber yards, tool stores, and paint stores had to close, so all those idled people with nothing to do packed themselves into Lowe's and Home Deport to get things for there NON ESSENTIAL home improvement projects such as putting up a new vanity in the restroom or getting a new door knob to replace a still perfectly functioning one. The nursery and seed stores had to close, so grandma goes to once again Lowe's or Home Depot for the pre-potted plants. Smoke shops had to close, so more people at drug or convenience stores endangering old people getting their prescriptions and people buying slurpies at 7-Eleven. Used car lots had to close, but not new car dealerships, which conveniently laid off all the people that clean cars so customers drive off with dirty cars. Goodwill stores had to close, depriving the poor of an important outlet for their shortage of funds. They chained up the tennis courts, closed off the baseball fields and golf courses, but basketball courts were left alone because that would be discriminating against the "inner city" folks..............and they still can't figure out if making Black people wear masks at shops OR refusing service because they won't wear a mask is the actual discrimination because it has already happened and reported zealously the press both ways on separate occasions as discrimination.

    Leave a comment:


  • Judith
    replied
    Originally posted by Salinator
    Hold on. We in the Bay Area has been locked down since March 16 2020, and our full reopening has been pushed back for another 30 days beyond July 13 2020, the original Phase 3 opening date. What European country had that long of a lockdown?
    So what does lockdown mean in the bay area?

    I think it helped, that leadership was coordinating appropriate response on a EU wide level. More European countries took covid seriously than states in the US though. Having a scientist in Merkel did help too.

    As long as this crisis isnt approached on a federal level in the US with all the understanding necessary, covid will drag on infinitly.

    As it looks right now it will take 100k more dead americans until a Biden government steps in to stop the chaos in november. It wont just go away miraculously.

    Its painful to watch to be honest, knowing that this catastrophy cost way too many lifes already.

    Leave a comment:


  • Salinator
    replied
    Hold on. Lockdown here is dictated by States and Counties. We in the Bay Area has been locked down since March 16 2020, and our full reopening has been pushed back for another 30 days beyond July 13 2020, the original Phase 3 opening date, and may cancel the recent Phase 2.5 and go back into Phase 2 status. What European country had that long of a lockdown?

    Leave a comment:


  • Andy H
    replied
    Originally posted by Skoblin View Post

    Indeed, and it may be too soon to make any judgments regarding the longer-term economic effects of COVID on various economies. The 8.1% unemployment rate currently registered in France makes it seem the country has weathered this crisis fairly well. Going beyond this mere statistic discloses a somewhat different story.

    https://www.focus-economics.com/coun...e/unemployment

    As pointed out, it is more difficult to fire people in most of Europe, and there are generally more generous support packages and subsidised employment schemes. The problem is that these cannot be maintained over the long-term in Europe, due to the EUs requirement that national budgets not have a deficit exceeding 3% of GDP and that accumulated public debt not exceed 60% of GDP. With steep declines in GDP registered in most of the Western European countries, it is hard to imagine a scenario where government subsidised support for maintaining employment can be continued without invoking EU sanctions. So, barring passage of the EU recovery plan which involves borrowing hundreds of billions of euros on the open market, the US may be in a stronger long-term position due to its more flexible employment practices (i.e. turfing people onto the street) and its unlimited borrowing capacity.
    Hi Skob

    I agree that its far to early to make definitive judgements about complex evolving situations.

    At its height in the UK there were more than 9miliion staff registered on the Government Furlough scheme, where the Govt paid 80% of the staff wages and the other 20% was either picked up by the employer or not.
    Now many companies have used that to stave off letting staff go, so UK unemployment is artificially low. However, the number of redundancies and companies going under is rising as the scheme payments change or the new normal means companies are no longer viable.
    Some companies will also use Covid as a convenient tool to bring about restructuring which otherwise would have caused ire with the Unions.

    The UK had a low Unemployment rate of 3.8% in April with a rise to 5% by this months end predicted and a projected rate of +7% come the end of October (which is when the current Furlough scheme ends).

    Regards

    Andy H

    Leave a comment:


  • Skoblin
    replied
    Originally posted by Salinator
    Hold on. We in the Bay Area has been locked down since March 16 2020, and our full reopening has been pushed back for another 30 days beyond July 13 2020, the original Phase 3 opening date. What European country had that long of a lockdown?
    Sal, what does 'lockdown' mean there in the Bay area specifically? Are all commercial establishments closed? As for Hungary, lockdown began around March 29. Most restrictions were lifted outside Budapest during the first week of May, and lifted in Budapest in late May. So, the lockdown in Hungary lasted about 5-7 weeks.

    Leave a comment:


  • TactiKill J.
    replied
    Not sure what they've done in the EU, but the US federal government incentivized unemployment. People are making more money being unemployed than they did when they were working. So more money, plus safer staying home, of course unemployment is still high. Let's see what happens at the end of July once stimulus payments stop.

    Leave a comment:

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