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  • Vaeltaja
    replied
    Originally posted by 17thfabn View Post
    Our armed forces people who have operated in Afghanistan and Iraq and else where the past 20 or so years HAVE not been trained to see those not in the same uniforms as the enemy. Actually quite the opposite.

    They have dealt with very complex situations by and large done a good job.

    They are NOT robots who come home programmed to kill.

    I would like to see a break down of the police officers that have been involved in excessive use of force . See what % are military veterans and of those how many were combat arms and or combat veterans.
    https://www.themarshallproject.org/2...e%20on%20duty.

    Officers who were deployed were 2.9 times more likely to have fired their weapons while on duty. Those who were not deployed were 1.94 times more likely to be involved in a shooting.
    ..
    In a 2017 investigation, The Marshall Project found that officers in Boston and in Miami with military experience were more likely to have a use-of-force complaint filed against them.
    https://www.themarshallproject.org/2...t-on-the-badge



    Or: https://www.theatlantic.com/national...saster/251380/

    Leave a comment:


  • 17thfabn
    replied
    Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post

    Soldiers are trained to see the people who are not in the same uniform as them as the enemy. .
    Our armed forces people who have operated in Afghanistan and Iraq and else where the past 20 or so years HAVE not been trained to see those not in the same uniforms as the enemy. Actually quite the opposite.

    They have dealt with very complex situations by and large done a good job.

    They are NOT robots who come home programmed to kill.

    I would like to see a break down of the police officers that have been involved in excessive use of force . See what % are military veterans and of those how many were combat arms and or combat veterans.

    Leave a comment:


  • CarpeDiem
    replied
    Originally posted by Von Richter View Post
    Law enforcement, isn't that what the courts, jury and judge are for? I thought the copper's job was to uphold the law and bring the baddies to justice, not execute 'em in the street?

    71Hcd5hhSDL._AC_SX522_.jpg

    Unless of course you're Old Stony Face.

    Splundig vur thrigg, Squaxx dek Thargo.

    Leave a comment:


  • CarpeDiem
    replied
    Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post

    The Ex mayor of New Orleans suggested this was something to watch out for.

    There is circumstantial evidence to suggest it...Russian television news outlets are all over the protest. But what kind of Americans would believe this country has systemic racism and what kind of Americans would destroy police stations, attack police , attack fellow Americans with different political view points, Take down statues in our country which honor great men and women of history.


    All of these signs point to foreign agents who could look and talk like Americans being involved in influencing groups like black lives matters and their supporters.

    Just a few years back the FBI uncovered ten Russian foreign agents who were up to no good and who walked and talked like every day American. They were sent to prison but were traded with four Americans in jail in Russia.

    Iran, North Korea, the Taliban or AQ could easily be involved in influencing the black lives matters protest doing anything they can to divide Americans.
    This is a history forum, not a conspiracy theory forum.
    If you have evidence, please provide it when asked to. It is the least you could do as a display of courtesy to other forum members and to demonstrate a willingness for honest debate.
    Otherwise, expect to see posts of this type moved to the Alternate History section.
    It is a struggle but we will not become the next reddit or 4chan.
    Thank you
    ACG Staff

    Leave a comment:


  • Von Richter
    replied
    Law enforcement, isn't that what the courts, jury and judge are for? I thought the copper's job was to uphold the law and bring the baddies to justice, not execute 'em in the street?

    Leave a comment:


  • Stonewall_Jack
    replied
    Originally posted by Rutger View Post

    Haven't seen you post nil evidence on the foreign agent claim, despite having asked several times.
    So, once again, what evidence do you have to show on that?
    Reports from intelligence agencies?
    Reports from trustworthy news agencies?


    The Ex mayor of New Orleans suggested this was something to watch out for.

    There is circumstantial evidence to suggest it...Russian television news outlets are all over the protest. But what kind of Americans would believe this country has systemic racism and what kind of Americans would destroy police stations, attack police , attack fellow Americans with different political view points, Take down statues in our country which honor great men and women of history.


    All of these signs point to foreign agents who could look and talk like Americans being involved in influencing groups like black lives matters and their supporters.

    Just a few years back the FBI uncovered ten Russian foreign agents who were up to no good and who walked and talked like every day American. They were sent to prison but were traded with four Americans in jail in Russia.

    Iran, North Korea, the Taliban or AQ could easily be involved in influencing the black lives matters protest doing anything they can to divide Americans.

    Leave a comment:


  • E.D. Morel
    replied
    Originally posted by 17thfabn View Post
    Why is the term "Law Enforcement" a problem?
    Law enforcement is a confrontational term. It is also only a part of what "Policing" is. The police are not there to impose the law on the public but rather police by the consent of the majority. They are instruments of the people, not of the State. They are civilians, not soldiers.

    I've been stopped by the police while driving in Ireland plenty of times. They have breathalysed me and checked to see of my car is taxed and insured. I've also got a few speeding fines. They would never bother stopping someone with a cracked light and if they did stop someone with a broken light it would just be to tell them to get it fixed. I don't fear the police. I respect them but I don't fear them.
    One in three of them is armed but they rarely shoot anyone and almost never shoot someone who isn't shooting at them.In the last 20 years I think they have shot 8 people.

    This gives a better description of the difference between Law Enforcement and Policing than I could;

    Concept of Law Enforcement


    At its core, the concept of law enforcement consists of just that: enforcing laws. In its purest form, law enforcement requires an unwavering adherence to rules and procedures. It involves a focus on the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law. Citations are issued, arrests are made, and force is employed with little regard for the reason or meaning behind a particular law or policy.

    Law enforcement can be a very effective way to maintain public order and punish crime inasmuch as it is focused on requiring the members of a community or society to comply with the law or face the consequences. The problem of law enforcement as the sole response to crime, however, is that it is singular in its approach, responding to effects without consideration for causes.

    Concept of Policing


    The term policing has come to mean an approach to fighting crime through community service and problem solving. It requires a holistic approach to dealing with crime, taking into account the problems that plague a community and working with the people within that community to solve them.

    Policing requires cooperation from residents, business owners, and leaders who participate in the process of reducing crime and improving quality of life. While this idea of community policing may sound revolutionary, it actually dates back to the earliest days of the modern police force. The concept is best articulated in Sir Robert Peel's nine principles of policing.

    Difference Between Law Enforcement and Policing


    While there may be some overlap between these two concepts, the truth is that the differences run deep. Whereas law enforcement implies compulsory compliance, policing suggests voluntary adherence. Where law enforcement uses the rule of law and the threat of punishment to enforce obedience, policing is intended to deal with behaviors through community relationships and addressing root causes.

    In a sense, law enforcement is but one component of policing—one of many tools in the toolbox available to police officers and law enforcement agencies.



    Leave a comment:


  • E.D. Morel
    replied
    Originally posted by 17thfabn View Post

    Why do you see vets as a problem? Some one who has served a full length of service and gotten a honorable discharge has proven he has some level of discipline.

    Why is the term "Law Enforcement" a problem?
    Soldiers are trained to see the people who are not in the same uniform as them as the enemy. The militarisation of police departments in the US is a sign that they have the wrong mindset. The police are there as a deterrent to make criminals think that they will be caught if they commit a crime, not that they will be shot while committing it. Their job is crime detection, mediation, de-escalation, examining crime scenes, telling families that their loved one has been killed in a car crash. They are often the first contact with people who have fallen through societies social safety net.

    There was a time when Cops were proud of never having used their firearm in service. The mindset of a soldier is completely different from what the mindset of a Cop should be. I get that both need discipline but the soldier needs to be deprogrammed before they can protect and serve.

    Leave a comment:


  • Von Richter
    replied
    I used to work with three blokes all of who had over 25 years service in the Royal Navy, reaching the rank of Petty Occicer, Chief Petty Officer and Warrant Officer.
    You'd think their experience, training and discipline would make them perfect shift team leaders...
    and you'd be wrong!
    These three were far and away the most incompetent man managers I've ever met. Almost everyone that had the misfortune to come across them learned the exact meaning of 'petty occifer'!
    The image of these three idiots as policemen makes my toes curl.


    Leave a comment:


  • TactiKill J.
    replied
    Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
    There's way too many ex-military in law enforcement in the US. Having military experience should be seen as a negative if someone is trying to get into that sector.
    Even the fact that you guys call it Law Enforcement tells me there's an attitudinal problem, "To protect and to Serve" is great, as long as there's an "everyone equally" at the end.
    Maybe I'm wrong, but I would like to think it's the other way around. People who have served in the military are more likely to be disciplined and understand the importance of unity and respect. They're also going to be well trained in self defense (thus less need for lethal force). Maybe most important, they're not going to be fearful of every encounter due to their background and confidence in their selves.

    Opposed to a guy being thrown into the fire with no relevant experience, or possibly little to no life experience at all. I imagine a lot of these bad cops would not have cut it in the military for one reason or another. We also can't discount MOS' who have primarily been involved in humanitarian and 'hearts and minds' efforts.

    But again, maybe I'm completely wrong. It would be interesting to see exactly how many of these abusive cops served.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rutger
    replied
    Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
    The protesters are in the wrong btw representing a tiny fraction of all Americans. And they are influenced by foreign agents.
    Haven't seen you post nil evidence on the foreign agent claim, despite having asked several times.
    So, once again, what evidence do you have to show on that?
    Reports from intelligence agencies?
    Reports from trustworthy news agencies?



    Leave a comment:


  • Vaeltaja
    replied
    Unless you aim to make your police force act like an occupying army on domestic soil you need very different qualities for those roles. Military disciple and behavior are very different from what police officer should have. That being said in my opinion being a veteran and a police is not a bad thing or wrong if it position as police officer is gained on its own merits and not on basis of having served in the military. It may become a problem however if so many of the police officers are ex-military as it may cause the military style behavior and attitudes permeate the policing (which is what some say is exactly what we are now seeing). It may start to blur the line as to where police and policing ends and where the military begins which is a very dangerous thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • 17thfabn
    replied
    Originally posted by E.D. Morel View Post
    There's way too many ex-military in law enforcement in the US. Having military experience should be seen as a negative if someone is trying to get into that sector.


    Even the fact that you guys call it Law Enforcement tells me there's an attitudinal problem, \
    Why do you see vets as a problem? Some one who has served a full length of service and gotten a honorable discharge has proven he has some level of discipline.

    Why is the term "Law Enforcement" a problem?

    Leave a comment:


  • Stonewall_Jack
    replied
    What’s the context of the video. Were the police having Molotov cocktails thrown at them or being attacked in any way.

    The protesters are in the wrong btw representing a tiny fraction of all Americans. And they are influenced by foreign agents.

    Leave a comment:


  • Vaeltaja
    replied
    Here in the ages past it used to be so that you almost had to have a military training, and more accurately military police (MP) training to have decent shot of getting a place in the police training but it has since been revised quite a bit so that currently you get exactly and precisely nothing at all counted in favor from military or MP background when applying to the police training.

    Leave a comment:

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