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  • #31
    Originally posted by Schmart View Post

    I totally agree. But it's a two way street. To many, Trump does no wrong (himself included). He never makes a mistake. Everything he says is gold. My intention was to point out that Trump is in fact, not really any different than the majority of politicians. Too many people are putting him on a pedestal.

    Plus I did include a winky smiley to imply some sarcasm with my observation...
    The problem with your analysis is that Trump is not a politician. He is a businessman, first of his kind in the White House, with no political affiliation to either party. Judging him by the standards applied to politicians is therefore invalid.
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Schmart View Post

      What would be 'much higher'? What's a ballpark number? Spanish flu...So there would need to be millions of Americans dying before you'd consider doing something about it?

      As it stands, regular flu season kills about 60k Americans (proportionally the same here in Canada, roughly) in a 6 month flu season. A 3 month COVID season has killed 120K Americans, so approximately 4 times higher. Straight up. There are no flu season lockdowns (how many COVID deaths would there be without a lockdown?), and likely more people get the flu than have gotten COVID (reducing the rate of death), so the actual death rate for COVID would be even more.
      120k is only twice 60k, so oyur math is wrong for starters, as are the overall figures. Then there is this:

      COVID-19: There have been approximately 499,296 deaths reported worldwide. In the U.S, 125,539 people have died of COVID-19, as of June 28, 2020.*

      Flu: The World Health Organization estimates that 290,000 to 650,000 people die of flu-related causes every year worldwide.

      In the U.S., from Oct. 1, 2019 – Apr. 4, 2020, the CDC estimates that 24,000 to 62,000 people died from the flu. (The CDC does not know the exact number because the flu is not a reportable disease in most parts of the U.S.)

      Ordinary flu carries a mortality rate up to five times higher than COVID, despite a "vaccine", and is not considered a pandemic nor are any precautions taken at all. A disease with the mortality and infectious characteristics of Spanish Flu or pneumonic plague would be considered a real pandemic.

      As for the second part of your question "before I consider doing something about it" does not relate to the issue and I have never made that statement. For some reason, people persist in attributing remarks to me that I have not made.

      COVID is a viral disease far less lethal than ordinary flu, about which we are totally unconcerned. We treat flu if it becomes severe enough, but we do not shut down the entire nation and go into hiding in utter panic. We are treating COVID, but acting like it is something totally different that it really is. That is the issue, and the only issue as far as I am concerned, and I am a diabetic "senior citizen" in the "at risk" category, allegedly, but the entire health care system has ignored me and those like me and made no attempt to assess any potential risk to me, despite all of my information being in the health care computer system. During my recent routine medical visit, no one event inquired about any possible exposure, symptoms or concerns that I might have had re COVID. Strange, isn't it? Even stranger that this "terrible" disease only attacks legal gatherings like church congregations and people attending public events and restaurants, but never attacks rioters, looters, and huge crowds of violent protesters.

      If someone is ill enough to need treatment for whatever cause, we should treat it, but entire sections of our health care industry also shut down because of COVID, an entirely unprecedented event and a direct violation of the Hippocratic Oath and the entire principle upon which health care is based. This is like firemen refusing to enter a burning building because there is a fire. The entire healthcare industry has shamed and demeaned itself as self-centered and unworthy, too worried about themselves to do their jobs. Good thing this wan't a real pandemic. If it were, we would all be dead.
      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

        COVID-19: There have been approximately 499,296 deaths reported worldwide. In the U.S, 125,539 people have died of COVID-19, as of June 28, 2020.*

        Flu: The World Health Organization estimates that 290,000 to 650,000 people die of flu-related causes every year worldwide.

        In the U.S., from Oct. 1, 2019 – Apr. 4, 2020, the CDC estimates that 24,000 to 62,000 people died from the flu. (The CDC does not know the exact number because the flu is not a reportable disease in most parts of the U.S.)

        .
        For those interested the source for this quote is here:
        https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/heal...019-vs-the-flu

        The last part of the section quoted above was also omitted:

        The COVID-19 situation is changing rapidly. Since this disease is caused by a new virus, people do not have immunity to it, and a vaccine may be many months away. Doctors and scientists are working to estimate the mortality rate of COVID-19, but at present, it is thought to be substantially higher than that of most strains of the flu.

        Comment


        • #34
          COVID-19: There have been approximately 499,296 deaths reported worldwide. In the U.S, 125,539 people have died of COVID-19, as of June 28, 2020.*

          Flu: The World Health Organization estimates that 290,000 to 650,000 people die of flu-related causes every year worldwide.

          In the U.S., from Oct. 1, 2019 – Apr. 4, 2020, the CDC estimates that 24,000 to 62,000 people died from the flu. (The CDC does not know the exact number because the flu is not a reportable disease in most parts of the U.S.)
          The CDC has a site with the ay they calculate the flu. The fact that the CDC does not know the exact number does not mean that the CDC cannot use statistics to have an estimate and use data from stations in all states regions which DO report flu data. But I assume there will be some extrapolation based on the reporting of those selected stations

          For example

          https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/overview.htm

          U.S. World Health Organization (WHO) Collaborating Laboratories System and the National Respiratory and Enteric Virus Surveillance System (NREVSS) – Approximately 100 public health and over 300 clinical laboratories located throughout all 50 states, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the District of Columbia participate in virologic surveillance for influenza through either the U.S. WHO Collaborating Laboratories System or NREVSS.

          ...

          Outpatient Illness Surveillance

          Information on outpatient visits to health care providers for influenza-like illness is collected through the U.S. Outpatient Influenza-like Illness Surveillance Network (ILINet). ILINet consists of outpatient healthcare providers in all 50 states, Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia and the U.S. Virgin Islands reporting approximately 60 million patient visits during the 2018-19 season.



          My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post

            For those interested the source for this quote is here:
            https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/heal...019-vs-the-flu

            The last part of the section quoted above was also omitted:


            My apologies: this is the latest information from the CDC: https://www.bing.com/search?q=CDC+mo...29F5D50FA947A7
            Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

              120k is only twice 60k, so oyur math is wrong for starters, as are the overall figures.
              Twice as many, but in half the time. How is my math wrong? 60k in 6 months flu season is 10k per month (average). 120k in 3 month COVID season is 40k per month (average).

              Ordinary flu carries a mortality rate up to five times higher than COVID
              Do you have a source for that?

              As for the second part of your question "before I consider doing something about it" does not relate to the issue and I have never made that statement. For some reason, people persist in attributing remarks to me that I have not made.
              I think it does relate to the issue and is relevant. You feel that governments are over-reacting. What do you think they should be doing currently, what I'm particularly (and genuinely interested in) is at what point (what indicators are used) for a government to declare a pandemic and react strongly? You've mentioned things like the plague and Spanish Flu, but those are very general terms. Is it a certain death rate? Overall deaths? Hospitalizations? Severity of the virus? For a government and health system to properly react, we can't go on vague terms like "Well, when it becomes like the Spanish Flu, then we'll do something about it"... What's the red line to cross before things happen? And then what does the system do as a reaction to the initial phase of the pandemic?

              COVID is a viral disease far less lethal than ordinary flu, about which we are totally unconcerned. We treat flu if it becomes severe enough, but we do not shut down the entire nation and go into hiding in utter panic. We are treating COVID, but acting like it is something totally different that it really is.
              Do we know the long-term effects? What is the different rate (as well as severity) of hospitalization between the flu and COVID? I think a lot of assumptions and guessing is being done on both sides of the argument, but what are the cold, hard, facts, and do we actually have all the cold, hard, facts? I think a lot of research and analysis is yet to be done to really figure out what impact this virus has and will continue to have.

              That is the issue, and the only issue as far as I am concerned, and I am a diabetic "senior citizen" in the "at risk" category, allegedly, but the entire health care system has ignored me and those like me and made no attempt to assess any potential risk to me, despite all of my information being in the health care computer system. During my recent routine medical visit, no one event inquired about any possible exposure, symptoms or concerns that I might have had re COVID. Strange, isn't it?
              I'd say then perhaps that is a gap in your health system, or perhaps you are in a region far less hard hit? I have had numerous dealings with our health system over the past few months (including with my pregnant wife), and there are numerous restrictions in place, questions asked, precautions taken, travel history, potential exposure tracking, etc.

              Even stranger that this "terrible" disease only attacks legal gatherings like church congregations and people attending public events and restaurants, but never attacks rioters, looters, and huge crowds of violent protesters.
              How do you know that? Is that an assumption you're making? What is the research on where and how people are contracting the virus?

              If someone is ill enough to need treatment for whatever cause, we should treat it, but entire sections of our health care industry also shut down because of COVID, an entirely unprecedented event and a direct violation of the Hippocratic Oath and the entire principle upon which health care is based. This is like firemen refusing to enter a burning building because there is a fire. The entire healthcare industry has shamed and demeaned itself as self-centered and unworthy, too worried about themselves to do their jobs. Good thing this wan't a real pandemic. If it were, we would all be dead.
              Did that not have to do with the initial impacts and severity of hospitalization required for COVID patients? When there's a new and unknown virus in our midst, what else should the health system have done, other than isolated incoming patients until we figure out what the heck is going on? If the virus had been worse and health systems were underestimating the impact and reacting complacently, would we instead be debating about the failure of health and political systems to properly and strongly react to an obviously extreme virus, and how they should've done more than they did?



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