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  • #61
    Originally posted by Massena View Post
    It is up to you to support your position on the drug. Dr Fauci and the FDA say it doesn't work. Trump says it does. You pick.
    As early as possible is crucial, within the first five to six days of symptoms.

    [Other red/colors highlights mine, to emphasize]


    Accepted manuscript

    Early Outpatient Treatment of Symptomatic, High-Risk Covid-19 Patients that Should be Ramped-Up Immediately as Key to the Pandemic Crisis
    Harvey A Risch

    American Journal of Epidemiology, kwaa093, https://doi.org/10.1093/aje/kwaa093

    Published:
    27 May 2020
    ....
    Abstract

    More than 1.6 million Americans have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 and >10 times that number carry antibodies to it. High-risk patients presenting with progressing symptomatic disease have only hospitalization treatment with its high mortality. An outpatient treatment that prevents hospitalization is desperately needed. Two candidate medications have been widely discussed: remdesivir, and hydroxychloroquine+azithromycin. Remdesivir has shown mild effectiveness in hospitalized inpatients, but no trials have been registered in outpatients.Hydroxychloroquine+azithromycin has been widely misrepresented in both clinical reports and public media, and outpatient trials results are not expected until September. Early outpatient illness is very different than later hospitalized florid disease and the treatments differ. Evidence about use of hydroxychloroquine alone, or of hydroxychloroquine+azithromycin in inpatients, is irrelevant concerning efficacy of the pair in early high-risk outpatient disease. Five studies, including two controlled clinical trials, have demonstrated significant major outpatient treatment efficacy. Hydroxychloroquine+azithromycin has been used as standard-of-care in more than 300,000 older adults with multicomorbidities, with estimated proportion diagnosed with cardiac arrhythmias attributable to the medications 47/100,000 users, of which estimated mortality is <20%, 9/100,000 users, compared to the 10,000 Americans now dying each week. These medications need to be widely available and promoted immediately for physicians to prescribe.
    .............
    https://academic.oup.com/aje/article...waa093/5847586



    TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
    “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
    Present Current Events are the Future's History

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Massena View Post
      Don't even go there. It's a malaria drug and it doesn't work against COVID-19. That has clearly been demonstrated.

      Yet many drugs have multiple uses and applications.

      TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
      “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
      Present Current Events are the Future's History

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Massena View Post

        Dr Fauci and the FDA have clearly said that the malaria drug is useless against COVID-19. Trump and so-called doctors, one of whom is a noted crackpot, support it. You pick.
        Did you read posts #37, 38, 40, 41 preceding this and the contents of the linked articles ???

        Devil is in the details and early use when COVID is a different stage than later shows if can be effective.

        I'd hardly consider this source and study "crackpot", but then I'd rather not politicize more than already done by some.

        https://academic.oup.com/aje/article...waa093/5847586
        TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
        “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
        Present Current Events are the Future's History

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

          Yet many drugs have multiple uses and applications.

          Best post this week
          Avatar is General Gerard, courtesy of Zouave.

          Churchill to Chamberlain: you had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.

          Comment


          • #65
            If hydroxychloroquine proves its worth clinically in the fight against COVID 19, well, that is good news. Reading through some of the material recently published, a few things pops up to me:
            1.The efficacy of hydroxychloroquine is dependant on its use in conjunction with two other drugs (azithromycin,remdesivir) and possibly zinc to treat people infected with COVID-19.

            (My comment: So it is not a miracle drug on its own. It will not save society from COVID 19 It is part of the solution as it is part of a cocktail of drugs.)

            2. The three- drug cocktail is effective on m
            ost people less than 60 years old who are of healthy weight and who don’t have other conditions like heart disease or diabetes can get by without medications.

            (My comment: So if you are relatively healthy before you catch COVID 19, this may work for you - Maybe not so for folks belonging to the older generation or struggling with life-long diseases.)

            3. From an earlier post on this thread taken from various references mentions
            Dr. Harvey Risch, an epidemiology professor at Yale School of Public Health, said on Tuesday that he thinks hydroxychloroquine could save 75,000 to 100,000 lives if the drug is widely used to treat coronavirus.
            The part missing is that Dr Risch is also quoted to say:
            In the current context "(...), we cannot afford the luxury of perfect knowledge and must evaluate, now and on an ongoing basis, the evidence for benefit and risk of these medications,” he urges.
            (My comment: So I take not everyone can be saved, good for those who can be, and continued evaluation of the drug is still required.)

            At the end,
            hydroxychloroquine may seem to be part of the solution to beat COVID 19, and I have no problems acknowledging it. But it is no stand-alone miracle cure for COVID 19 and that should also be acknowledged.

            Last edited by Capt AFB; 29 Jul 20, 13:13. Reason: Grammar corrections

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Capt AFB View Post
              At the end, hydroxychloroquine may seem to be part of the solution to beat COVID 19, and I have no problems acknowledging it. But it is no stand-alone miracle cure for COVID 19 and that should also be acknowledged.
              I agree.

              It's far from the magic bullet. There's still more research and trials to be done:

              https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...eatment-386056

              "Navarro’s advocacy on behalf of hydroxychloroquine has ramped up since a study conducted earlier this month by the Henry Ford Medical Center suggested the drug could help mildly ill patients recover faster from Covid-19.

              But experts have noted that patients who participated in the trial, which did not include a placebo control group, were not randomized and that many were also on steroids known to help with inflammation."

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Capt AFB View Post
                If hydroxychloroquine proves its worth clinically in the fight against COVID 19, well, that is good news. Reading through some of the material recently published, a few things pops up to me:
                1.The efficacy of hydroxychloroquine is dependant on its use in conjunction with two other drugs (azithromycin,remdesivir) and possibly zinc to treat people infected with COVID-19.

                (My comment: So it is not a miracle drug on its own. It will not save society from COVID 19 It is part of the solution as it is part of a cocktail of drugs.)

                2. The three- drug cocktail is effective on m
                ost people less than 60 years old who are of healthy weight and who don’t have other conditions like heart disease or diabetes can get by without medications.

                (My comment: So if you are relatively healthy before you catch COVID 19, this may work for you - Maybe not so for folks belonging to the older generation or struggling with life-long diseases.)

                3. From an earlier post on this thread taken from various references mentions
                The part missing is that Dr Risch is also quoted to say:


                (My comment: So I take not everyone can be saved, good for those who can be, and continued evaluation of the drug is still required.)

                At the end,
                hydroxychloroquine may seem to be part of the solution to beat COVID 19, and I have no problems acknowledging it. But it is no stand-alone miracle cure for COVID 19 and that should also be acknowledged.
                1) As early as possible is crucial, within the first five to six days of symptoms.

                2) Only partial excerpts from linked articles presented because of Forum rules and concerns of copyright infringements.

                3) Material presented is to the point it is a treatment, not a cure.
                To reduce symptoms and suffering and hasten recovery of effects.

                4) In midst of a "pandemic"and one only a few months old, and with desire to end dislocations ASAP, usual research methods might be shortcut. If continued class as an experimental treatment and patients advised of the risks, than it should be a patient's choice.

                5) While opposing opinions is common to science, and medicine, especially in recent appearing events/cases; some would appear to be do to misconceptions and misreading of current data and research.
                TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
                Present Current Events are the Future's History

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Schmart View Post

                  I agree.

                  It's far from the magic bullet. There's still more research and trials to be done:

                  https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...eatment-386056

                  "Navarro’s advocacy on behalf of hydroxychloroquine has ramped up since a study conducted earlier this month by the Henry Ford Medical Center suggested the drug could help mildly ill patients recover faster from Covid-19.

                  But experts have noted that patients who participated in the trial, which did not include a placebo control group, were not randomized and that many were also on steroids known to help with inflammation."
                  Context of the preceding two paragraphs is more honest and informative ....
                  .......
                  Navarro, who is assisting with the administration’s coronavirus vaccine development and coordination of the supply chain for personal protective equipment, has clashed repeatedly with public health officials including Dr. Anthony Fauci, the country’s top infectious disease expert, over the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine since the early days of the pandemic.

                  “I’m pleading with you and the American people to look at this drug again,” Navarro said. “Because I literally have tens of millions of tablets sitting in the Strategic National Stockpile that — if we were allowed under the doctors’ advice to get this stuff to people at the first sign of their symptoms — I guarantee you it would cut the amount of time of the symptoms, reduce the duration of the symptoms and save lives.”
                  .......


                  Sort of like CPR. Given within minutes of a heart attack or other situation that calls for it, it can make major difference and be a life saver. Wait a couple hours and the window of effectiveness is past.
                  TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                  “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
                  Present Current Events are the Future's History

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                    So, since Trump was not symptomatic when he announced that he took the drug, you cannot use this study to justify Trump's claims

                    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trum...ry?id=72039824

                    Asked to clarify his position on the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine, Trump said that "many doctors think it is extremely successful."

                    "I took it for a 14-day period, and I'm here. Right? I'm here," he said. "I don't think you lose anything by doing it, other than politically.

                    My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by pamak View Post

                      So, since Trump was not symptomatic when he announced that he took the drug, you cannot use this study to justify Trump's claims

                      https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trum...ry?id=72039824

                      Asked to clarify his position on the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine, Trump said that "many doctors think it is extremely successful."

                      "I took it for a 14-day period, and I'm here. Right? I'm here," he said. "I don't think you lose anything by doing it, other than politically.
                      I don't recall make statements linking the material I've presented to Trump's claims. I'm presenting such to counter the misinformation on this substance coming from others and to provide information for readers to make their own minds about.

                      Whether Trump took it or not, endorses it or not, the relevant consideration should be the detailks published in medical journals results showing it can be of use in certain conditions and should be available for such.

                      The more people try to tag this to Trump and use it to negative spin on both as an usable treatment, and as a device to "get Trump" the more they show they don't really care about the disease and people catching, suffering, and or dying from such. It's all about politicizing anything and everything to "get Trump".
                      TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
                      “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
                      Present Current Events are the Future's History

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                        ... I'm presenting such to counter the misinformation on this substance coming from others and to provide information for readers to make their own minds about.:
                        NO.

                        Data show that hydroxychloroquine don't work. You take isolated claims as proof of disinformation then totally, purposely or not, discard scientific method. This is not countering misinformation, this is spreading disinformation.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Are they hiding something?

                          The Lancet Retracts Hydroxychloroquine Study
                          https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2020...oroquine-study


                          June 4, 2020 - The online medical journal The Lancet has apologized to readers after retracting a study that said the anti-malarial drug hydroxychloroquine did not help to curb COVID-19 and might cause death in patients.

                          The study was withdrawn because the company that provided data would not provide full access to the information for a third-party peer review, saying to do so would violate client agreements and confidentiality requirements, The Lancet said in a statement.

                          “Based on this development, we can no longer vouch for the veracity of the primary data sources. Due to this unfortunate development, the authors request that the paper be retracted,” The Lancet said in a statement..........

                          https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2020...oroquine-study
                          see the link above for the full article..

                          “Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” -- Albert Einstein

                          The US Constitution doesn't need to be rewritten it needs to be reread

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Massena
                            Trump is not better than Obama.
                            Trump is 10 times better than Obama
                            Last edited by BorderRuffian; 31 Jul 20, 10:56.
                            {}

                            "Any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight." -Proverbs 18:17

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              What you have to understand is that in society so overtaken by Luxus form comes to dominate function. In that environment you can dress up a toad and the courtiers see a prince. Trump is not a prince but neither is he a toad. He is a typical loud and obnoxious New Yorker who would often be better off keeping his random thoughts to himself. Still he hasn't completely abandoned function as our overly emotive elites have. The Democrats and neo cons have no clothes when you pull back the curtain. It's all just theater and self importance, the chaos of the preference for form.
                              We hunt the hunters

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

                                I don't recall make statements linking the material I've presented to Trump's claims. I'm presenting such to counter the misinformation on this substance coming from others and to provide information for readers to make their own minds about.

                                Whether Trump took it or not, endorses it or not, the relevant consideration should be the detailks published in medical journals results showing it can be of use in certain conditions and should be available for such.

                                The more people try to tag this to Trump and use it to negative spin on both as an usable treatment, and as a device to "get Trump" the more they show they don't really care about the disease and people catching, suffering, and or dying from such. It's all about politicizing anything and everything to "get Trump".
                                If you want to ignore the claim that the president promoting the medicine for preventive reasons and the fact that your source about the effects of medicine on symptomatic patients does not validate his claim, you are free to do so. I just wanted to talk about the facts that you ignore in a thread which is clearly about the Hydroxychloroquine controversy
                                My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                                Comment

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