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Time for the US to seriously reconsider a Universal Basic Income?

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  • Time for the US to seriously reconsider a Universal Basic Income?

    Hmmmmm............ Richard Nixon........
    The most complex of all presidents?
    Yes, undoubtedly.


    and the most misunderstood?
    No not quite, that was Wilson but tricky runs a very close second.

    Potentially one of the best?
    Well the best was of course Madison ... but sans Watergate a fully unfettered Nixon second terms is one of the great 'what might have been's in US history.

    He might, just might have reconsidered his initial 1969 idea of introducing a Universal Basic Income.
    I love the idea coz I hated working and never gave my employer (the Australian Government) a proper days effort in 34 years!

    Given events of the last seventy five days and with a view to future crises perhaps the idea's time has come again.
    However crazy some people think it might be.

    Now where's that copy of Rutger Bregman's Utopia for Realists?
    I know it's around here somewhere.

    Regards
    lodestar




  • #2
    The province of Ontario in Canada was going to have a pilot for this but it was round filed by the current premier. It will definitely be discussed as a possibility once the Covid-19 emergency wanes.

    But I would expect the US will be the last place on earth to institute a UBI.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, I want a UBI.

      But I need others to work to clothe and feed me, make truck repairs, do plumbing work, etc, etc - so they don't get a UBI.
      {}

      "Any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight." -Proverbs 18:17

      Comment


      • #4
        UBI is generally considered as a replacement for existing welfare systems. The problem is that they don't address the same issues.

        UBI addresses people that are competent but can't get ahead. Think of it as a monopoly game where a couple of bad rolls leaves someone unable to continue playing.

        Welfare addresses people that are incompetent in the broadest sense of the word. Think of it as a monopoly game where a player's strategy is so bad that despite what they roll they can't continue playing.

        At least 20 percent of the population due to intellectual or emotional inadequacies are unable to fully care for themselves in a complex society. I'm not talking about old age or other physical disabilities, that is a different problem. That number will grow as AI replaced assembly line workers and low level professionals. UBI would help some but not all of the additional people move into some sort of service job. Welfare on the hand is not just a bridge to some other work it is a complex system to manage the lives of the incompetent.

        Many people are under the delusion that in a world where AI does all the work capitalism has no place. That is a gross misunderstanding of what capitalism is. It is not an economic system so much as a management system. The only type of management system that can deal with complex chaotic systems. Capitalism enforces the responsibility on which freewill is based. Freewill on which morality is based. That may seem backwards but that is because freewill is poorly understood, especially by the scientific community. Our science cannot deal with the "soul". The complex instinctual patterns associated with individual dignity.

        Freewill is an abstract social construct like money. It's real it just isn't what you think it is. That is not to say that other animals do not have "freewill" in a rudimentary sense. It is only to say that the kind of freewill we are concerned with only exists in complex social structures where the need for responsibility calls it into existence.

        Obviously we are talking about a form of capitalism as abstract as money. The form it takes in the "real" world of cultural selection is a complex topic volumes could be written about.

        We hunt the hunters

        Comment


        • #5
          The greatest dis-incentive for independence, self-initiative, and advancement.
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          • #6
            I've heard it said you can't have a welfare state with open borders. I don't know who said it, perhaps the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan. He made a lot of insightful statements.

            The U.S. has semi open borders. And a semi welfare state.
            Last edited by 17thfabn; 22 May 20, 15:37.
            "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
            Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 17thfabn View Post
              I've heard it said you can't have a welfare state with open borders.

              The U.S. has semi open borders. And a semi welfare state.
              The USA has a strong border...far more then European countries. And we provide welfare to a small percentage of the population. Food stamps and social security disability recipients for example undergo a detailed process for approval.

              Illegal immigration happens worldwide. But the US has border stops along the Mexican and Canadian borders.
              Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
              Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

              George S Patton

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              • #8
                Originally posted by lodestar View Post
                Hmmmmm............ Richard Nixon:hmmm
                ... but sans Watergate a fully unfettered Nixon second terms is one of the great 'what might have been's in US history.

                He might, just might have reconsidered his initial 1969 idea of introducing a Universal Basic Income....
                Nixon was an oath-breaking, statist, control freak *******!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post

                  The USA has a strong border...far more then European countries. And we provide welfare to a small percentage of the population. Food stamps and social security disability recipients for example undergo a detailed process for approval.

                  Illegal immigration happens worldwide. But the US has border stops along the Mexican and Canadian borders.
                  I'll Agree to disagree that the U.S. has a strong border.

                  Over 20 % of the U.S. population gets government assistance. I'd say that is a sizable number.

                  https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pres...5/cb15-97.html
                  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
                  Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 82redleg View Post

                    Nixon was an oath-breaking, statist, control freak *******!
                    He was one complicated man.
                    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post

                      He was one complicated man.
                      Yes, as I pointed out the most complex of presidents.

                      The humblest (his mother washed bedpans in a hospital for a while if the legend is to be believed) and most
                      pacifist of beginnings (Quaker family) but so many ideas in his head:

                      an enlightened conservative agenda on some domestic issues that was uniquely his (the EPA, his flirting with a
                      UBI as mentioned, enforcement of desegregation)

                      Resolute and lethal in foreign affairs when he felt he needed to be; as in the 1972 Christmas bombing of
                      North Vietnam even if he knew in his heart the US was wrong to be involved to the extent it was.
                      But also amazingly farsighted and flexible in diplomacy as demonstrated in his visit to China for example.

                      True to himself but distrusting other Americans (he felt more at ease with foreign leaders it seems) and eventually clearly paranoid (he believed there was a East Coast liberal conspiracy to destroy him....which of course there actually was - so was he really not unduly paranoid? - cripes it can drive you crazy!).

                      Watergate, not happening raises the great might have been of...... No Watergate = No Reagan??.

                      The other great imponderable? - had we met what would Milhous have made of the divine and sentient lodestar​​​​​​​?

                      Ahh alternate worlds don't ya love 'em?

                      Regards
                      lodestar


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by lodestar View Post
                        Hmmmmm............ Richard Nixon........
                        The most complex of all presidents?
                        Yes, undoubtedly.


                        and the most misunderstood?
                        No not quite, that was Wilson but tricky runs a very close second.

                        Potentially one of the best?
                        Well the best was of course Madison ... but sans Watergate a fully unfettered Nixon second terms is one of the great 'what might have been's in US history.

                        He might, just might have reconsidered his initial 1969 idea of introducing a Universal Basic Income.
                        I love the idea coz I hated working and never gave my employer (the Australian Government) a proper days effort in 34 years!

                        Given events of the last seventy five days and with a view to future crises perhaps the idea's time has come again.
                        However crazy some people think it might be.

                        Now where's that copy of Rutger Bregman's Utopia for Realists?
                        I know it's around here somewhere.

                        Regards
                        lodestar


                        Wilson was not a president,but a professor living in an ivory tower .
                        And jacobin is a marxist media .

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lodestar View Post
                          ...
                          an enlightened conservative agenda on some domestic issues that was uniquely his (the EPA, his flirting with a
                          UBI as mentioned, enforcement of desegregation)

                          Resolute and lethal in foreign affairs when he felt he needed to be; as in the 1972 Christmas bombing of
                          North Vietnam even if he knew in his heart the US was wrong to be involved to the extent it was.
                          But also amazingly farsighted and flexible in diplomacy as demonstrated in his visit to China for example....
                          I don't know if your first language is English, but none of those three things are examples of a conservative agenda. The EPA and UBI are decidedly statist control freak Progressive, and clearly unConstitutional (which leads to the oath-breaking part). While I agree with desegregation, it is small-l liberal, not conservative.

                          I guess we'll have to disagree about how resolute Nixon was, too. The Christmas bombing was simply the culmination of a vaccilating and irresolute policy toward Vietnam. I'm not sure that it ever could have been won, but Nixon certainly didn't help matters.

                          I guess you could characterize the diplomacy with China as flexible, but it certainly wasn't far-sighted. Instead of leaving an asocial and tyrranical regime to wither, Nixon gave them legitimacy as part of his globalist agenda, setting the conditions for the confrontation we have today, and for the interconnected global economy that is showing such poor results in this pandemic.

                          All in all, a horrible leader and non- statesman.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 17thfabn View Post

                            I'll Agree to disagree that the U.S. has a strong border.

                            Over 20 % of the U.S. population gets government assistance. I'd say that is a sizable number.

                            https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pres...5/cb15-97.html
                            Our military is # 1. And Euro borders are literally wide open, thats my point that at least the USA has a border between Canada and Mexico. And we have two oceans separating us from other countries. No country would challenge our borders via land and seas. Yes some drug dealers and illegals(looking for as better life these Christians are) sneak in but that occurs worldwide. One way to deter illegal drugs coming over is to legalize all drugs thereby eliminating the illegal drug trade overnight.



                            Our country has lost its way when we sold out factory jobs overseas..that led to a downfall in union jobs and and an uptick in the lower class. I have said all along the US middle class is not as strong today as it used to be in the 1940s-1960s. To have 2/10 Americans on gov assistance is not terrible that #would include elderly folks that need the help. And many folks on medicaid or medicare could be long haul truckers or taxi drivers making 75k plus but they have a mileage deduction of 50 cents per mile that lowers their income level which is only fair. That low income level qualifies them for the medicaid/medicare. Our country still offers good middle class jobs such as trucking, food delivery for app jobs, uber/lyft(not now so much but they will be back) but we need to bring back millions more steel and auto jobs.

                            https://news.gallup.com/poll/265958/...n-members.aspx

                            https://qz.com/1542019/union-members...erywhere-else/

                            Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
                            Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

                            George S Patton

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Herman Hum View Post
                              The greatest dis-incentive for independence, self-initiative, and advancement.
                              Do you have something to back that up with? Because the Finnish experiment concluded that UBI "improve their mental wellbeing, confidence and life satisfaction".
                              Wisdom is personal

                              Comment

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