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  • Who is responisble ?

    When we first heard about the coronavirus breaking out in China, hospital administrators did not order critical supplies.

    When the President blocked travel to and from China, hospital administrators did not order more critical supplies.

    In January, when citizens began buying all the masks available, Hospital administrators did not start ramping up supplies.

    As late as last week hospitals had not suspended elective surgical procedures, which would have saved medical supplies used in those procedures.

    Who is responsible for managing the critical response capability of any hospital? The president? The Congress? The Governor? The Mayor?

    For those forum members who are too young to remember, we once had a emergency response system that was built from the bottom up, it was called the Civil Defense System.
    It was organized on the premise that the best and most effective response to any emergency is based on local community county then state, then federal reaction.
    It was funded through federal grants and it served us very well.

    FEMA replaced that system and since the 1990s. How is that working ?

    The federal government, plague by bureaucracy and political maneuvering and it's tendency to slow response has hamstrung every administration since it's creation.
    Much like the Corps of Engineers, FEMA places more emphasis on administration, and chain of command than on services.

    Local responsibility for planning, implementation of emergency response makes sense.


    Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
    Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

  • #2
    FEMA's catastrophic failure during Katrina pretty much sums it all up.
    The problem with any system, however, is that it requires constant practice, critique and tweaking to work best. Few admins/bureaucracies want to invest the time, money and effort into the constant training required.

    I also think that we are seeing the "cry wolf" syndrome at work here. The mass media is notorious for creating crises where none exist, so I can see why the various agencies were slow to respond.

    To more directly address your question, the Public Health agencies at the lowest level, usually city and county, are responsible or detecting and notifying the upper echelons of the response system.

    Here in my location, the funding for the Public Health personnel and training has been cut to below susbsistence levels, leaving nothing to respond with. PAX worked for them for a while, but the constant refusal to allow them to train, educate and equip, or even to take on the most rudimentary aspects of their mission, left her frustrated beyond belief.

    Given that Colorado is, and has been for almost forever, a Democrat state, the Democrats carry the blame for that failure here, at the level of Governor.
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
      [....]
      Who is responsible for managing the critical response capability of any hospital? The president? The Congress? The Governor ? The Mayor ?
      The board of directors of the hospital presumably, they have contingency plans and strategic reserves, which may be defined by law or previous regulation, or not.

      The duty of a mayor is to keep order in his city.

      The duty of a governor is to coordinate all hospitals/mayors in a province.

      Federal government must keep supply lines open and running.

      At least that's how it works here
      Last edited by Snowygerry; 23 Mar 20, 13:06.
      Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Game.

      Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

      Comment


      • #4
        It's amazing how quickly everything boils down to blame on this forum. Facts, lessons to be learned, changes we maybe need to make going forward, mistakes we probably should admit to.... **** all that. Let's find someone to blame! It's even more fun when we only look in the group we hate for a scapegoat! Kills two birds with one stone!

        Pitchforks! Pitchforks for everyone!

        What an idiotic thread.

        Comment


        • #5
          Could this be the reason...?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DingBat View Post
            It's amazing how quickly everything boils down to blame on this forum. Facts, lessons to be learned, changes we maybe need to make going forward, mistakes we probably should admit to.... **** all that. Let's find someone to blame! It's even more fun when we only look in the group we hate for a scapegoat! Kills two birds with one stone!

            Pitchforks! Pitchforks for everyone!

            What an idiotic thread.
            In order to fix a problem, one must first establish the cause. When that cause is bureaucratic, as so much is these days, then "blame" becomes an essential element.

            How do you go about "fixing" something when the government itself is the root cause? You can't, because first the government would have to publicly admit its failure and agree to change.

            So, yes, it boils down to finding out whom to blame.
            Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

            Comment


            • #7
              Seems a good spot for this article on leadership and blame,

              ”When you blame you give up your power to make changes”

              https://www.inc.com/gordon-tredgold/...solutions.html
              Last edited by CarpeDiem; 23 Mar 20, 14:40.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                In order to fix a problem, one must first establish the cause. When that cause is bureaucratic, as so much is these days, then "blame" becomes an essential element.

                How do you go about "fixing" something when the government itself is the root cause? You can't, because first the government would have to publicly admit its failure and agree to change.

                So, yes, it boils down to finding out whom to blame.
                Asking "who is responsible?" is not conducting a root cause analysis. Proper root cause analysis and accident investigation never touches on blame. It's only interested in what happened, what contributed to it happening, and what changes are recommended to avoid it happening again in the future. Blame is politics.

                No one here is interested in fixing any problem, of any kind. Fixing problems involves change and no one here wants anything to change where it might inconvenience them in any way, violate their worldview, or challenge their cherished ideologies.

                The only thing anyone here is interested in is more ammunition for the red-blue war. How Covid-19 became a red-blue thing is a disgrace.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DingBat View Post
                  It's amazing how quickly everything boils down to blame on this forum. Facts, lessons to be learned, changes we maybe need to make going forward, mistakes we probably should admit to.... **** all that. Let's find someone to blame! It's even more fun when we only look in the group we hate for a scapegoat! Kills two birds with one stone!

                  Pitchforks! Pitchforks for everyone!

                  What an idiotic thread.
                  You have a valid point about blame but this thread is not idiotic. I did not know hospitals dropped the ball with supplies. Hospital administrators are to blame for not being on top of it from day one. Instead they failed miserably and now want to blame the government for their failure to act.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nikki View Post

                    You have a valid point about blame but this thread is not idiotic. I did not know hospitals dropped the ball with supplies. Hospital administrators are to blame for not being on top of it from day one. Instead they failed miserably and now want to blame the government for their failure to act.
                    How do you know hospitals dropped the ball with supplies? The OP provided no links to investigate. I'm not saying they didn't. But how do you know?

                    If they did "drop the ball" why did that happen?
                    - Were the actually incompetent?
                    - When were they warned of the crisis?
                    - Did they have the funds?
                    - Was there even a national supply that they could have ordered from?
                    - Is it a case of supplies being distributed across the country so that no one has an adequate amount?
                    - Why did the hospitals make the decision to continue elective surgery?

                    There's a (very simplistic) rule of thumb with root cause analysis that you're not getting anywhere close to the true root of the problem until you've asked "why?" (or some similar question) five times. Jumping to conclusions is the single biggest danger when conducting root cause analysis.

                    It is also not common for there to be a single, root cause for any major crisis/disaster/emergency. There is almost always a collection of contributing events/causes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Urban hermit View Post
                      When we first heard about the coronavirus breaking out in China, hospital administrators did not order critical supplies.

                      When the President blocked travel to and from China, hospital administrators did not order more critical supplies.

                      In January, when citizens began buying all the masks available, Hospital administrators did not start ramping up supplies.

                      As late as last week hospitals had not suspended elective surgical procedures, which would have saved medical supplies used in those procedures.

                      Who is responsible for managing the critical response capability of any hospital? The president? The Congress? The Governor? The Mayor?

                      For those forum members who are too young to remember, we once had a emergency response system that was built from the bottom up, it was called the Civil Defense System.
                      It was organized on the premise that the best and most effective response to any emergency is based on local community county then state, then federal reaction.
                      It was funded through federal grants and it served us very well.

                      FEMA replaced that system and since the 1990s. How is that working ?

                      The federal government, plague by bureaucracy and political maneuvering and it's tendency to slow response has hamstrung every administration since it's creation.
                      Much like the Corps of Engineers, FEMA places more emphasis on administration, and chain of command than on services.

                      Local responsibility for planning, implementation of emergency response makes sense.

                      A national effort to fight a war cannot be a product of spontaneous initiative by some administrators. It has to be coordinated at the top level and must include the supply line. In order to order more, you need first to produce it.

                      Also, the systems themselves still require leadership and funding. If you have incompetent leaders and low funding, the type of organization's structure will not compensate for such shortages even if its structure is sound.

                      https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/imm...order-n1046691

                      Trump admin pulling millions from FEMA disaster relief to send to southern border

                      On the other hand, all leaders, including at the local level share responsibility. One cannot JUST point at Trump or the federal government.
                      My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Responsible for what?

                        Leave out the politics, and its just a new strain of the flu.

                        South Korea is over the hump, so maybe Beijing wasn't lying after all. In 4 weeks it will be over at this rate.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post
                          Seems a good spot for this article on leadership and blame,

                          ”When you blame you give up your power to make changes”

                          https://www.inc.com/gordon-tredgold/...solutions.html
                          You're hesitant to accept any kind of responsibility for your choices and actions, especially if they've led to an unfavorable result.

                          also tries to get out of a sticky situation. They'll intentionally make it appear to be somebody else's fault, even if they're partly or fully to blame.
                          Sounds like any day at work

                          The short of it is: bad leaders blame, great leaders don't!
                          We prefer to call it 'blame avoidance'.
                          Major Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Game.

                          Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Phaing View Post
                            Responsible for what?

                            Leave out the politics, and its just a new strain of the flu.

                            South Korea is over the hump, so maybe Beijing wasn't lying after all. In 4 weeks it will be over at this rate.
                            South Korea is over the hump AFTER they applied strict measures that they do not take for regular flu. So, their experience cannot be used as an argument that this virus is like a flu.
                            My most dangerous mission: I landed in the middle of an enemy tank battalion and I immediately, started spraying bullets killing everybody around me having fun up until my computer froze...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by pamak View Post

                              A national effort to fight a war cannot be a product of spontaneous initiative by some administrators. It has to be coordinated at the top level and must include the supply line. In order to order more, you need first to produce it.

                              Also, the systems themselves still require leadership and funding. If you have incompetent leaders and low funding, the type of organization's structure will not compensate for such shortages even if its structure is sound.

                              https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/imm...order-n1046691

                              Trump admin pulling millions from FEMA disaster relief to send to southern border

                              On the other hand, all leaders, including at the local level share responsibility. One cannot JUST point at Trump or the federal government.
                              Hospitals in the US are not short of cash, nor are the health insurance companies.
                              FEMA funding has nothing to do with community health districts preparing for health crisis. That is their mandate.
                              Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
                              Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

                              Comment

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