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  • Flying on electric

    https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...g-a-revolution
    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

  • #2
    A great start. There are problems to be sure such as the weight of the batteries giving the motor power vs. the weight of cargo(passengers) being transported.
    ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
    IN MARE IN COELO

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    • #3
      Battery cars are dumb. Battery operated planes are insanely stupid. You cannot get around the chemistry and physics of batteries.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hey, I live there!

        This is a small, commuter airline that runs puddle jumpers between various spots on Vancouver Island and the mainland. The hops between, say, Nanaimo and Vancouver are less than an hour so if they can make it work it's a good option that will save them a lot of money.

        The island is one of those spots where factors come together to make EV's (and possibly E-planes) a great choice. It rarely gets below 5C, nothings usually more than a 2 hour drive away, lots of existing EV charging stations, etc.

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        • #5
          From the article;
          ...
          Then in 2017, 50 solar panels and four beehives housing 10,000 honeybees were added ...
          ...

          As a honeybee keeper I'd like to point out that a typical hive in full Summer harvest mode is about 40-60,000 bees. 10,000 bees are the usual Winter hibernation population of one hive.

          Four hives should be at least 4x10,000 for a 40,000 total, this time of year. 10,000 per four hives works out to 2,500 each and that usually means a hive that won't survive the Winter.

          Leaves me wondering how many other details this author may have gotten wrong.
          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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          • #6
            Originally posted by DingBat View Post

            Hey, I live there!

            This is a small, commuter airline that runs puddle jumpers between various spots on Vancouver Island and the mainland. The hops between, say, Nanaimo and Vancouver are less than an hour so if they can make it work it's a good option that will save them a lot of money.

            The island is one of those spots where factors come together to make EV's (and possibly E-planes) a great choice. It rarely gets below 5C, nothings usually more than a 2 hour drive away, lots of existing EV charging stations, etc.
            I also live near there, here on the USA half of the Frasier basin South of the border.

            For small aircraft and short ranges this might be doable, sort of. I doubt it's scalable to larger aircraft like say a 737 or the Bombardier Dash-8 which we see quite a few of around here;
            220px-Dehav.dash8.750pix.jpg
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland

            With conventional avgas power, the aircraft looses weight as fuel is consumed, with batteries you continue to carry the weight even when they are nearly drained. Add in the cost of electricity for recharge, assuming there is no taxpayer subsidy covering part of that cost, along with costs of the batteries and their limited lifespan and I doubt there will be any significant money saving.

            Good PR at least, but lacks versatility and can't use if going too far from a charge station.

            I doubt I'd ride in such.
            ...
            Okay, there's this also from the linked article;
            ...
            One area that requires further development is battery capacity. Many experts doubt that large fully electric passenger airliners will be available any time soon – current battery technology simply does not offer as many miles per kilo compared to aviation fuel.

            The power density in aviation fuel is high, in the neighbourhood of 12,000 watt hours per kilogram. A lithium ion battery is only in the region of 200 watt hours per kilogram.
            ...
            Last edited by G David Bock; 17 Feb 20, 12:36.
            TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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            • #7
              The big problem here remains recharge time. Whether battery powered or fueled by something else, the amount consumed will remain roughly the same. Since recharge systems are voltage and amperage limited, these determine the recharge time for the batteries. Batteries are also limited by the speed at which the chemical reaction can occur and are usually heat limited in that respect. So, how much time is a commercial aviation service willing to let their planes sit and charge as opposed to fly?

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              • #8
                I wonder if there would be a capacity to actually generate electrical power while the plane is in flight..say with a bank of small turbines turned by the airstream as the aircraft moves
                ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
                IN MARE IN COELO

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                • #9
                  That would be a huge violation of all sorts of laws of physics. A bank of turbines would be producing drag as they scoop air to spin, which would counter any power generation they might have.
                  Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                    Battery cars are dumb. Battery operated planes are insanely stupid. You cannot get around the chemistry and physics of batteries.
                    Smartphones are dumb, you can't get around chemistry and physics of batteries.
                    *lugs around a PRC-77*. obviously, you know, technology marches forwards.
                    Wisdom is personal

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                      That would be a huge violation of all sorts of laws of physics. A bank of turbines would be producing drag as they scoop air to spin, which would counter any power generation they might have.
                      Lawss...lawss? We don' need no steenkin' lawss...
                      ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
                      IN MARE IN COELO

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Karri View Post

                        Smartphones are dumb, you can't get around chemistry and physics of batteries.
                        *lugs around a PRC-77*. obviously, you know, technology marches forwards.
                        I don't have a smartphone or a dumb one for that matter... They don't get around the chemistry of batteries. You have to charge them regularly, and the designers knowing that have done their best to reduce power usage in the phone's electronics, something you can't do in an aircraft's or vehicle's design for the most part. Yes, there are some ways to improve battery range and reduce power requirements, but they're more limited.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Karri View Post

                          Smartphones are dumb, you can't get around chemistry and physics of batteries.
                          *lugs around a PRC-77*. obviously, you know, technology marches forwards.
                          Until a few centuries ago, it wasn't marching at any significant pace. Such has ramped up a bit of late,especially the past several decades, but there are some limits still and on the horizon.

                          Current advance of "battery technology" is based on use of lithium, so perhaps some examination there ...
                          .....................................
                          The lightest known metal can also lighten your mood. Lithium, atomic number 3, is an element of many uses. It's used in the manufacture of aircraft and in certain batteries. It's also used in mental health: Lithium carbonate is a common treatment of bipolar disorder, helping to stabilize wild mood swings caused by the illness.

                          Lithium has a flashy discovery story — literally. A Brazilian naturalist and statesman, Jozé Bonifácio de Andralda e Silva, discovered the mineral petalite (LiAISi4O10) on the Swedish isle Utö in the 1790s, according to the Royal Society of Chemistry (RSC). The mineral is white to gray, but when thrown into fire, it flares bright crimson.

                          In 1817, Swedish chemist Johan August Arfwedson discovered that petalite contained a previously unknown element. He wasn't able to isolate the metal entirely, but he did isolate one of its salts. The name, lithium, comes from "lithos," the Greek word for "stone."

                          It took until 1855 for someone to isolate lithium: British chemist Augustus Matthiessen and German chemist Robert Bunsen ran a current through lithium chloride to separate the element.

                          Physical properties

                          According to the Jefferson National Linear Accelerator Laboratory, the properties of lithium are:
                          • Atomic number (number of protons in the nucleus): 3
                          • Atomic symbol (on the Periodic Table of Elements): Li
                          • Atomic weight (average mass of the atom): 6.941
                          • Density: 0.534 grams per cubic centimeter
                          • Phase at room temperature: Solid
                          • Melting point: 356.9 degrees Fahrenheit (180.5 degrees Celsius)
                          • Boiling point: 2448 degrees Fahrenheit (1342 degrees Celsius)
                          • Number of isotopes (atoms of the same element with a different number of neutrons): 10; 2 stable
                          • Most common isotopes: Li-7 (92.41 percent natural abundance), Li-6 (7.59 percent natural abundance)
                          The brain on lithium

                          Lithium is a special metal in many ways. It's light and soft — so soft that it can be cut with a kitchen knife and so low in density that it floats on water. It's also solid at a wide range of temperatures, with one of the lowest melting points of all metals and a high boiling point.

                          Like its fellow alkali metal, sodium, lithium reacts with water in showy form. The combo of Li and H2O forms lithium hydroxide and hydrogen, which typically bursts into red flame.

                          Lithium makes up a mere 0.0007 percent of the Earth's crust, according to the Jefferson Lab, and it's only found locked up in minerals and salts. Those salts have the power to change the brain: Lithium salts were the first drugs approved by the Food and Drug Administration to treat mania and depression, according to the National Institute of Mental Health.

                          Today, lithium carbonate is the compound most often sold as a pharmaceutical. No one knows exactly how lithium works to stabilize mood. Studies show multiple effects on the nervous system. In 2008, for example, researchers reported in the journal Cell that lithium interrupts the activity of a receptor for the neurotransmitter dopamine. It also appears to plump up brain volume, according to a 2011 study in the journal Biological Psychiatry (though this research is hotly contested).
                          ...
                          Lithium, as well as the first and second lightest chemical elements (hydrogen and helium, respectively), are the only elements created at the birth of the universe, according to NASA. However, according to the Big Bang Theory, the universe should hold three times as much lithium as can be accounted for in the oldest stars, an issue called the missing lithium problem. ...
                          ...
                          • Lithium-ion batteries are the key to lightweight, rechargeable power for laptops, phones and other digital devices. According to the U.S. Geological Survey, Argentina and Chile increased their lithium production 15 percent each in 2014 alone to meet the growing demand. Worldwide, production jumped 6 percent that year.
                          • Lithium and another battery component, cobalt, could become scarce as demand increases, Stefano Passerini and Daniel Buchholz, both at the Helmholtz Institute Ulm in Germany, said in a statement describing their analysis of the future availability of those elements published in 2018 in the journal Nature Reviews Materials. In addition, both are concentrated in less politically stable countries, the study revealed. As such, the researchers urged the development of new battery technologies based on other, non-toxic elements.
                          • The United States has one lithium mine, in Nevada, according to the USGS. Chile and Australia produce the most lithium in the world.
                          ...
                          https://www.livescience.com/28579-lithium.html

                          Also ...
                          ... For related reasons, lithium has important uses in nuclear physics. The transmutation of lithium atoms to helium in 1932 was the first fully man-made nuclear reaction, and lithium deuteride serves as a fusion fuel in staged thermonuclear weapons.[3]

                          Lithium and its compounds have several industrial applications, including heat-resistant glass and ceramics, lithium grease lubricants, flux additives for iron, steel and aluminium production, lithium batteries, and lithium-ion batteries. These uses consume more than three quarters of lithium production.

                          Lithium is present in biological systems in trace amounts; its functions are uncertain. Lithium salts have proven to be useful as a mood-stabilizing drug in the treatment of bipolar disorder in humans.
                          ...
                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium



                          TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

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                          • #14
                            Short version:

                            One look at a periodic table shows that the maximum charge between two elements suitable for use in a battery produces around 2 vdc. This charge per battery cell doesn't change with size. A bigger cell will last longer than a smaller one. Some chemical reactions work longer than others. Some are reversible (eg., rechargeable batteries) and some aren't. All batteries have a service life based on how long the chemical reaction will work and on how many times you can expect to reverse that reaction (recharge the battery). Many of these reactions are exothermic and work best at low rates of speed.

                            That's the simplest explanation of battery chemistry. You can't get around the 2 vdc per cell thing. You can't get around the charge time being measured in hours not minutes. You can't get around the problem of needing numerous charging stations if you want to charge numerous batteries because of that.

                            The other problem, particularly with lithium, is there simply isn't enough of it to make enough batteries to ever come close to meeting current, let alone future, energy needs worldwide.



                            All of this argues that batteries are not the answer to large scale energy production, are not the answer to energy in mobility like vehicles, and it's exceedingly stupid to try and go down that rabbit hole. But I expect the Left and Progressives to want what they want, reality be damned. This is how you end up with $h!+ holes like Venezuela or Cuba.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                              Short version:
                              ----


                              .
                              What does that map mean? Reserves/Resources.... is that in tons, thousands of tons, what?

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